Thoughts on this jam? 100NL

NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭
When I c-bet the flop and he doesn't raise with the flush draw on board, I feel that I can pretty much rule out sets and QQ (ruling out KK and AA pre since no 4-bet), and likely AJ as well. I decided to check shove the blank turn because I felt like it looked bluffy could possibly induce a hero call from from 77-TT, AK, and AQ as well as any flush draws he may have. I also felt that my hand was too vulnerable heading to the river OOP. Thoughts on this line?

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $1 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
SB: 114.32 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
Hero (BB): 100 BB
CO: 61.17 BB (VPIP: 44.44, PFR: 44.44, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:diamond: 9:diamond:

fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 11 BB, BTN calls 8 BB

Flop: (22.5 BB, 2 players) 6:heart: 4:diamond: J:heart:
Hero bets 15 BB, BTN calls 15 BB

Turn: (52.5 BB, 2 players) 2:club:
Hero checks, BTN bets 16.83 BB, Hero raises to 74 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 55.67 BB and is all-in

River: (197.5 BB, 2 players) 6:diamond:
BTN shows A:heart: 9:heart: (One Pair, Sixes)
(Pre 68%, Flop 45%, Turn 27%)
Hero shows J:diamond: 9:diamond: (Two Pair, Jacks and Sixes)
(Pre 32%, Flop 55%, Turn 73%)
Hero wins 195.5 BB

Comments

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    I would say that at first glance when I saw the hand I tried to think about what you could have in this spot since it's BUT vs. Blinds. I think that the hands he call with on Turn you got them also but you have more hands that will crush his drawing range, at least this was my first impression when I read it for the first time. He got equally under PP as Overpair there. + drawing NFD and probably 2nd nut flush. He got more drawing hands than better J so I don't dislike the play. But i'm nowhere near playing NL100.

    If we look at what you shove here, more often than not you'll have more value than semi-Bluffs, assuming that you are shoving your NFD this way. You probably never shoving the mistake calling portion of V so I think I like the play.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    I would say that at first glance when I saw the hand I tried to think about what you could have in this spot since it's BUT vs. Blinds. I think that the hands he call with on Turn you got them also but you have more hands that will crush his drawing range, at least this was my first impression when I read it for the first time. He got equally under PP as Overpair there. + drawing NFD and probably 2nd nut flush. He got more drawing hands than better J so I don't dislike the play. But i'm nowhere near playing NL100.

    If we look at what you shove here, more often than not you'll have more value than semi-Bluffs, assuming that you are shoving your NFD this way. You probably never shoving the mistake calling portion of V so I think I like the play.

    When I 3-bet pre and follow up on this board, I have a set of Jacks, QQ+, AJs, AhKh, AhQh all in my range and I think that I can still rep those with a c/r on the turn, so I feel that I have enough strong hands here in my range to make up for the times that I show up with a hand like this (which you stated). When he flats from the button and doesn't raise flop, I feel his range is pretty weak overall and consists of mid pp (which forces him to either bluff catch or fold on the turn) and flush draws but not AhQh or AhKh as played. I decided to check-shove here because any overcard or heart puts me in a gross spot oop with my exact holding and putting this type of pressure on him could force a mistake, which it did in this case.

    My main reason for posting this hand i was to see if my analysis and logic make sense to other players that I know are working on their game.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    It seems to me that your turning a good bluff catcher into a bad bluff.

    I mean you argue that he might hero call you with small pairs and good Aces, but your line is very strong...and many of these hands check back the turn, because thats what most people do with bluff catchers.

    Then you argue your hand is vulnerable....well yeah but that what most bluff catchers are....how vulnerable is it really... 12 outs, 9out, 6 outs, 2 outs ???.....at worst 24 % and you can probably fold to a heart on the river...

    And at this level do player really bluff the turn and river, in 3 bet pots, or turn bluff catchers into bluffs here for 2 streets. I mean give him 77, if he bets the turn....and you call, does he ever bluff the river. If he has the flush draw, does he bluff turn and river.... If the answer is yes then call turn and call river...if the answer is no call turn and fold river.....

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    @Eazzy
    Eazzy wrote: »
    It seems to me that your turning a good bluff catcher into a bad bluff.
    I mean you argue that he might hero call you with small pairs and good Aces, but your line is very strong...and many of these hands check back the turn, because thats what most people do with bluff catchers.

    Ok, so in this particular spot, with what type of hands do you see V stab the Turn when we check ?
    Eazzy wrote: »
    Then you argue your hand is vulnerable....well yeah but that what most bluff catchers are....how vulnerable is it really... 12 outs, 9out, 6 outs, 2 outs ???.....at worst 24 % and you can probably fold to a heart on the river...

    Do you think V is never stabbing River without a Flush if a Heart fall ?
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Eazzy wrote: »
    It seems to me that your turning a good bluff catcher into a bad bluff.

    I mean you argue that he might hero call you with small pairs and good Aces, but your line is very strong...and many of these hands check back the turn, because thats what most people do with bluff catchers.

    Then you argue your hand is vulnerable....well yeah but that what most bluff catchers are....how vulnerable is it really... 12 outs, 9out, 6 outs, 2 outs ???.....at worst 24 % and you can probably fold to a heart on the river...

    And at this level do player really bluff the turn and river, in 3 bet pots, or turn bluff catchers into bluffs here for 2 streets. I mean give him 77, if he bets the turn....and you call, does he ever bluff the river. If he has the flush draw, does he bluff turn and river.... If the answer is yes then call turn and call river...if the answer is no call turn and fold river.....

    It's not just hearts. He can float the flop with overs too and if a heart, Q, K, or A hit the river, he gets to play the river perfectly in position. That's 3 Q, 3 K, 3 Aces and 11 hearts that could fall on the river (since we don't know if our opponent has a heart in his hand). These scare cards create a tough spot on the river against my hand in a 3-bet pot. That's nearly 1/2 the deck that can put me in a tough spot on the river.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭
    @Eazzy
    Eazzy wrote: »
    It seems to me that your turning a good bluff catcher into a bad bluff.
    I mean you argue that he might hero call you with small pairs and good Aces, but your line is very strong...and many of these hands check back the turn, because thats what most people do with bluff catchers.

    Ok, so in this particular spot, with what type of hands do you see V stab the Turn when we check ?
    Eazzy wrote: »
    Then you argue your hand is vulnerable....well yeah but that what most bluff catchers are....how vulnerable is it really... 12 outs, 9out, 6 outs, 2 outs ???.....at worst 24 % and you can probably fold to a heart on the river...

    Do you think V is never stabbing River without a Flush if a Heart fall ?

    I see no reason why Villain doesn't stab with his entire range when I check the flop. My line to that point looks a lot like a hand that can give up on the turn.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    @Ninjah

    You mean X the Turn?
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭
    @Ninjah

    You mean X the Turn?

    Yep.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    Eazzy wrote: »
    It seems to me that your turning a good bluff catcher into a bad bluff.

    I mean you argue that he might hero call you with small pairs and good Aces, but your line is very strong...and many of these hands check back the turn, because thats what most people do with bluff catchers.

    Then you argue your hand is vulnerable....well yeah but that what most bluff catchers are....how vulnerable is it really... 12 outs, 9out, 6 outs, 2 outs ???.....at worst 24 % and you can probably fold to a heart on the river...

    And at this level do player really bluff the turn and river, in 3 bet pots, or turn bluff catchers into bluffs here for 2 streets. I mean give him 77, if he bets the turn....and you call, does he ever bluff the river. If he has the flush draw, does he bluff turn and river.... If the answer is yes then call turn and call river...if the answer is no call turn and fold river.....

    It's not just hearts. He can float the flop with overs too and if a heart, Q, K, or A hit the river, he gets to play the river perfectly in position. That's 3 Q, 3 K, 3 Aces and 11 hearts that could fall on the river (since we don't know if our opponent has a heart in his hand). These scare cards create a tough spot on the river against my hand in a 3-bet pot. That's nearly 1/2 the deck that can put me in a tough spot on the river.

    If you have no read, then just bet the turn. Otherwise you check to induce, and figure out the river....maybe folding A K Q of hearts and calling the other (depending on his bet size.)...Keep in mind he also fears a lot of those cards...many players who floated with AQ would check back an A or Q on the river, Thus you induce two bluffs with the check, call line.

    .your OOP, and chose to 3 bet with blah hand.....now you have to chose which line is the best....and Yes if your oop, without good control it sucks, you have to make reasonable assumption about your field...I tend to avoid 3 betting these spots (love control Lag with it total nit woos with out it)....
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    Whats your reasoning for the resteal here? Not that i hate the play, It just seems like J9s is a good hand to defend with in the BB rather than 3bet
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    Whats your reasoning for the resteal here? Not that i hate the play, It just seems like J9s is a good hand to defend with in the BB rather than 3bet

    It's definitely a standard defend. I've been experimenting with widening my 3-bet range because I've noticed a lot of opponents don't play well postflop in low SPR pots and I'm trying to find new ways to place additional pressure on my opponents.

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