Hand 3: XX on J86

NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭✭
edited December 2016 in 6max Workbook (Vol 1)
Although we don’t have a lot of hands vs. this table, the original raiser is very loose even from EP as he is a RFI% from EP of 29% and has not folded to any 3-bets. This means that he is raising a lot of weak hands OOP and is continuing with a lot of those hands even vs. 3-bets. The button is a very tight player so I expect to take the button here most of the time. Small blind is a LAG but has a full stack. Big blind is a short stack but is of no real risk of 4-betting at 56/4. He is a calling station with an extremely wide range that has a lot of weak hands in it. Original raiser and I are deep stacked so I want to 3-bet a lot of hands in this situation, including all suited Broadways and some suited connectors.

3-bet range: AA-88,AKo-AJo,KQo-KJo,QJo,AKs-ATs,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s
12.8% 170 combos

Workbook Questions: 3-betting AQ, 99, and KJs

Flop: :Jc :8h :6h

Down to 148 combos on the flop. His continuing range even in a 3-bet pot is pretty wide and with a 50% continuing frequency in a 3-bet pot, he will be floating overs and chasing a lot of different draws, including gutshots. Against a player who is calling the flop with such a wide range, I want my c-bet range to be heavy on value. I will check AK (but bet AK w/ Ah blocker) along with my bluff catching hands like TT, 99, and second/bottom pair. I will bet my top pair hands, overpairs, sets, OESD, and FD. I will also bet my Ax with backdoor flush draws. Betting at a 63.1% frequency (82 out of 130 combos)

Workbook Questions: AA bet, AK check (along with TT, 99, and second/bottom pair), hearts bet


Turn: :9h

Down to 81 combos on the turn. Although Villain only has two pair+ about 25% of the time based upon the range I assigned him and only about half of that are straights and flushes so he does not have many nutted hands. He has top pair and middle pair an additional 25% of the time and with a high WTSD% of 30% but rarely wins at showdown (31%), he goes to showdown with a lot of these weak hands so I will continue to bet for value. Because I already had a value heavy range and opponent is sticky with weak hands, I will be firing the turn a high percentage of the time. Betting 79 of 81 combos for a 97.5% frequency.

Workbook Questions: Bet QQ, Bet AK (one heart), AK (no heart) check (I checked most previously but had some BDFD AK hands)

River: :2s
I’m betting for value on a brick river as there are a lot of weaker hands that Villain will call a value bet with. I’m betting all overpairs, sets, flushes, and Jx hands. Betting 69 of 79 combos for an 87.3% frequency.

Workbook Questions: Betting KK, Betting Jx, checking A high

When he raises the river, I would shove with any flush and any overpair. His WTSD% is very high but his win % at showdown is very low and I feel that there are a lot of Jx hands that he may overvalue and some hands that he may bluff with in this spot so I am willing to shove light.

Comments

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭✭
    HAND #3

    First thing i take into account is the shorter stack of EP. Even if he puts 46% VPIP he got a huge gap between his VPIP/PFR which lead me to think that he is opening UTG with a fairly tighter/stronger range since his overall PFR is at 16% so his UTG opening could be even lower than 16% which is fairly tight at 6-Max.

    We 3Bet. BUT is a NIT, so i'm not to worried about him playing back on us. Both blinds are short stack and BB is on the whale side of the spectrum. I should expect calls on a decent frequencies by blinds here specially if SB 3Bet call. This could lead EP to make a move with a wider 4Bet/Shove range given calls from Blinds.

    FREQUENCIES EXPLOIT

    V never fold vs. 3Bet and he got a 70% calling vs. 3Bet. So i will 3Bet with a very value heavy range and depolarized one. If BUT was playing back a lot and/or blinds i would probably call a certain % of the time with AA/KK but here it is not the case. Since V dont fold a lot to Fcbet and Tcbet, i will bet with my value on the bigger side on both streets and bet smaller with Strong Draws.

    QUESTION :

    EP has been min-raising when open-rais-ing thus far. Are you more likely to call $1 or 3bet with the following hands?

    AQ and 99 are 3Bets, and given stats i got from BUT and Blinds i'll call Kjs.

    My 3Bet range preflop is this :

    12.2% - 162 combos
    fdajsgxz450c.png

    FLOP
    :Jc :8h :6h


    On flop i'm down to 148 combos with cards removal. I will bet with a very wide range here. All my value will be bet so TP/OvP+Sets+One pair hands. I will also bet FD+BackDoor FD.

    All this represent 80 Combos of hands which account for 54% of the previous range.

    QUESTION :

    Think about the current texture and how runouts are going to influence the board. What is your plan with the following?

    AA – I'll bet Turn on Bricks and Hearts and folding to a sizeable raise if i doesn't have the ace of heart. If V call than i'll proceed more causiously on River if he X to me.

    AK – With the ace of heart i'll bet any Turn heart and probably X the rest even if a Q or T spike Turn.

    Hearts - I'll fire all hearts for the rest.


    TURN
    :9h



    On Turn i now have 76 combos with card removal. I'll Fire Sets-Flush-FD-TP-OvP. All this represent 57 combos which account for 75% of the previous range. Maybe here I should find some X in this range since i feel that this is a very heavy frequencie?



    QUESTION :

    The turn is an interesting card. Would you double barrel or check-behind with the following hands?

    QQ (With No Heart) - Bet

    AK (With 1 Heart) – If it's the K i check otherwise i bet.

    AK (With No Heart) – X


    RIVER
    :2s



    On River my range doesnt really change. So i fire Flush/Sets and my missed FD. So it's 41 combos out of 57 which account for 72%.

    Here V is winning 33% of the time when he reach showdown which he do 30% of the time. I'm expecting him to take this line with a large portion of his SDV so i think we don't necessarly need a lot of bluffs in our betting range River but given the fact that we have a certain portion of our range that will X back maybe we need to compensate for that?

    QUESTION :

    After betting the flop and turn, you con-tinue firing on a brick river. Would you bet again with the following?

    KK – Yes but not 100%

    Jx – Probably with the J of Heart but X back the rest.

    Ace High – Bluff all Ace high of heart but X the rest.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭✭
    EDIT:

    I again forgot that we are at NL50 so completely missed the Deep portion of the hand :/
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭✭
    I have already learned a lot about hand reading in the first section and I wanted to share some of my thoughts on each hand in the first section of the workbook. Feel free to add your own info or ask questions! I broke this into a hand by hand post because I don’t want to discourage people from reading a VERY long post if I were to attach it all at once.

    Hand 3: After working through hand 3, I recognize that the Villain we are up against is very loose and his stats (in my opinion) support thin value betting, but the river is still a difficult spot for me even after completing the hand. When he shoves here, does that change the dynamics of my observation that he is a loose player and has a WTSD% that is too high because of the amount of strength he is showing or is it an acceptable play to call it off with a hand as weak as an overpair despite the connected board? I’m very conflicted here. If the turn was a complete brick, I would call it off pretty happily here but I’m not sure that this is the correct play based on how the hand played out.
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Took some time off for the holiday. For #3 I am concentrating most on the fact that the villain is loose passive and seems to make a ton of calling mistakes. I want to 3b a very strong linear range here that does well against his min raise open range. This is 99+ and big cards for me. The flop isn't great for my range since I am neglecting most suited connectors and I didn't raise 88 or 66. That said, my flush draws will be better than villains and my made hands will dominate his one pair hands. I am not going to be very balanced here and will bet for thin value the whole way. I'll bluff hearts and king queen, and check back with Ace high misses TT and 99. This guys showdown stats are telling. High went to showdown and low won at showdown are hallmark weak passive calling station. The max exploit here is to bet everything top pair and better all the way, folding to resistance. On the river when we get raised I will shove the nuts and nut blocker, call flushes, and fold the rest.
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    Another point to consider is the sample size is super small so a lot of these stats don't hold as much water. That said, loose and passive is still the population read I will go with. Also, on the river there isn't much left so I probably wouldn't go for the bluff shove.
  • Brendan RBrendan R Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
    I decided to start posting my thoughts on these mostly due to my confidence going up after doing a few haha. Posting from an iPad today so I won't go thru my whole thought process because it's way too difficult to type it out. In the future I'll post from a computer but some points to consider:

    A linear 3 bet range is the way to go here. UTG is going to be calling our 3 bet most of the time here. He has very fishy stats and fish love to call 3 bets. We don't expect the BU or SB to come along very often. My preflop range was a bit wider than the above posts because I think having position, the initiative and a skill edge go a long way here to incentive us to play this hand. I'd be 3 betting suited aces some medium suited connectors and the double blocker broadway hands in addition to the obvious value hands.

    Flop is pretty good for the PFC. Definitely a flop that would give everyone a lot of minor hits/draws. Because this is a 3 bet pot, we should be 3 betting lighter and smaller due to SPR. So we should probably be betting here with a higher than normal frequency. His fold to flop c bet stat is pretty high although it's lower in 3 bet pots but I suspect sample size might be an issue for the latter stat.

    With the turn completing the flush my betting range would contract considerably. I'd probably be betting with over cards if I had a heart blocker but I'd begin to check my overpairs, middle pairs etc. type hands because they're not worth 3 streets of value especially on a somewhat coordboard that is better for the PFC. It's beginning to be clear that he has some piece of the board that he probably isn't letting go of.

    When Villain calls the turn bet it's pretty clear to me he has something. While his stats support thin value I'm probably only betting two pair plus on this board for value. I'd be checking back one pair hands and overs. Normally I'd bet with missed draws here as bluffs but considering how sticky and fishy Villain is I'd probably only be betting for value at this point as fish tend not to fold at this point. They get determined to see a showdown after calling two barrels.

    Really enjoying these mental exercises so far!
  • fatking lfatking l Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Min opens are usually very weak, and can be interpreted almost as a limp.
    BUT:
    Apparently nobody is concerned about the SB. Why? He is a full stack with solid aggressive stats.
    Consequently we can expect him to 4 bet wide. We cannot really call this raise with the speculative part of our 3bet range, which most of you have played above. Consequently, we should decide to overcall here, with the intentoin to call a squeeze from SB:
    Therefore I would only raise with the top of my range here 6% (78 hands)

    AA-TT,AKo,AKs-ATs,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs

    Of course, when SB folds this is too nitty, but we do not know this. what do you think?
  • fatking lfatking l Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
  • dqlgnolehtdqlgnoleht Red Chipper Posts: 2 ✭✭
    IMO, With calling station player like this guy in hand #3. I prefer heavy value range, not bluffing.
    QUESTIONS:
    - AQo: 3BET (CALL shove of BB if Villain FOLD)
    - 99: 3BET (CALL shove of BB if Villain FOLD)
    - KJs: 3BET (FOLD if BB shove)
    ===PRE FLOP===
    => My preflop range: AA-77,AKo-AQo,KQo,AKs-ATs,KQs-KJs
    (Quite tight vs others but I don't want to widen my 3bet range in this situation cause of the villain does not fold to 3BET 2 much and we have 3 opponents behind and BB has short stack with loose stat)
    => FORM: 8.14%
    => COMBOS: 108

    ===FLOP===
    On flop, my combos down to 100 as card removal.
    My plan does not change on flop, my betting range here is heavy value.
    QUESTIONS:
    - AA: BET
    - AK: Generally when missing flop on this case, I still bet some of my combos like BDFD but with size bet is smaller than 1/2 POT, I think 1/3 POT is better cause of it is cbet bluff with wide range opponent, 1/3 POT size can still generate FOLD equity enough for us.
    - Hearts: BET (Semi-bluff case, in my range, all FD are very strong and has decent equity even villain has top pair in this case)

    =>MY RANGE: AA-JJ,88,AJs,KJs,AhKh,AhQh,AhTh,KhQh
    => % PREV: 34%
    => COMBOS: 34 COMBOS

    ===TURN===
    9h completes FD on turn, and I even consider the straight on that case cause of he is loose player.

    My approach on this case is, I will check back all of my backup FD like AhKx, AxKh, 88. The reason is, if I still bet my draw at this point and then get raise with huge size, I can not continue with my draw. I only bet value of my flush here.
    QUESTIONS:
    - QQ (with no hearts): CHECK
    - AK (With 1 hearts): CHECK
    - AK (With no hearts): CHECK

    => My range: AhKh,AhQh,AhJh,AhTh,KhQh,KhJh
    => % OF PREV: 17.6%
    => COMBOS: 6

    ===RIVER===
    All of my betting range on the turn is value of strong flush so when got check/raise on river of Villain, it's easy to me to call with non-nut flush and shove with nut flush. I will fold AA (if it were still on my range in this situation) if got check/raise because, the turn is a scared card, if villain wants to bluff, why not in the turn, so most of the time check/raise here is valueing, not bluffing.


  • Cees_DCees_D Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Hi All, this is what I made of it.

    Preflop
    EP is a loose pasive player, with a huge VPIP/PFR gap. EP RFI 29%, but there are still 3 people to act behind me so I cannot just 3BET freely. Do I want to take the risk of 3Betting all the hands so I can Isolate EP? Maybe I can do that sometimes, but eventually the players behind will know I 3BET wide. If I just call the 3 people behind can also easilly call behind, which makes my range postflop less strong. I can also decide after I 3BET and see what happens.
    AQ = 3BET
    99 = Call
    KJs = 3BET

    My preflop 3BET range:
    AA-TT,AKo-AJo,KQo,AKs-AJs,KQs-KJs (63.6% vs EP call 3bet range)
    7.4% and 98 combo’s

    EP Calling range (Cv3BET 70% so 70% of his 29% RFI continues = 20%)
    JJ-22,AQo-A9o,KQo-KTo,QJo-QTo,JTo,AQs-A9s,KQs-K9s,QJs-Q9s,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s,76s,65s,54s

    Flop
    :Jc :8h :6h

    EP FvFCBi3B 50%. I would bet all, because he folds 50% of the time and winn outright. If he calls we still have equity. So I think betting is +EV. If a another heart comes on the turn we have to be carefull. EP has 3x as much flush combo's as we do and it is 20% of his flop range.
    AA = Bet (To get a fold or a call)
    AK = Bet (To get a fold, see what the turn brings)
    Hearts = Bet (To get a fold or a call. If we draw we have the nuts)

    My flop cbet range:
    AA-TT,AJo,AJs,KJs,AhKh,AhQh,KhQh (EP continues with 50% of his range, so I'm too. PP below TP+/flushdraw/OESD) (65.4% vs EP flop calling range)
    50% and 45 combo’s

    EP Calling range (50% passes through. PP below TP+/flushdraw/OESD/gutshot/60% of 2crd bckdr flush)
    JJ-88,66,AJo,KJo,QJo-QTo,JTo,AJs,KJs,QJs-Q9s,JTs-J9s,T9s,97s,54s,AhQh,AcQc,AhTh,AcTc,Ah9h,Ac9c,KhQh,KcQc,KhTh,KcTc,Kh9h,Kc9c,Tc8c,9c8c,8c7c,7c6c,6c5c

    Turn
    :9h

    On the turn I dont expect EP to play OESD and gutshot anymore, me neither. With both TP+/flushdraws we are 50/50. If we look at the flush only we have 78% equity. EP has FvTCB 0%
    QQ (With no Heart) = Check and get to showdown
    AK (With 1 Heart) = Check and hope for heart on river.
    AK (With no Heart) = Check (Not in my range)

    My betting range:
    AA-JJ,AJo,AJs,KJs,AhKh,AhQh,KhQh,TcTh,TdTh,TsTh (TP+/flushdraws) (50% vs EP turn calling range)
    93.3% and 42 combo’s

    EP calling range
    JJ,99-88,66,AJo,KJo,QJo-QTo,JTo,AJs,KJs,QJs-QTs,JTs-J9s,AhQh,AhTh,KhQh,KhTh,TcTh,TdTh,TsTh,9c8c,5h4h

    River
    :2s

    Our range of TP+ has 53.5% equity vs EP's range so we can bet everything as long as it is my range.
    KK = Bet
    Jx = Bet (My Jx has a higher density of high Jx than EP's)
    Ace-High = Not in my range

    My betting range:
    AA-JJ,AJo,AJs,KJs,AhKh,AhQh,KhQh (TP+) (This range has 53.5% equity vs EP's range)
    92.9% and 39 combo’s

    River All-In (I think EP would only check raise SET+)
    AA = Fold
    A Non-Nut Fush = Check
    Air = Fold

    My river All-In range:
    JJ,AhKh,AhQh,AhJh,KhQh,KhJh (SET+) (This range has 70% equity vs EP's range. But I had to fold 73% of my range and EP only 54%)
    19% and 8 combo’s

    EP X/R range
    JJ,99-88,66,QTo,QTs,AhQh,AhJh,AhTh,KhQh,KhJh,KhTh,QhJh,JhTh,5h4h
  • dave19067dave19067 Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited October 9
    Some of my notes:
    I think his raising range is quite tight so I'm going to treat it as if a TAG raised.

    Preflop:
    AQ and 99 are 3-bets.
    Call with KJs since its at a disadvantage against villian's range. Since we are deepstacked, it has some implied odds with the draws it can hit. Though, the bad thing about calling is the LAG on the small blind who might 3-bet.

    Flop:
    AA - Overbet 1.5x for value against fishy player. AK - Check. Hearts - Bet 0.5x.
    Board hits villian's range well. He plays honestly given his stats.

    Turn:
    QQ - Bet about 2/3 for value as he has more midpairs and top pairs than nutted hands.
    AK (w/heart) - Check to see free card as Villian hit hard on turn.
    AK (w/no heart) - We have little equity and should give up.
    Stats indicate he's a huge calling station

    River:
    KK - Value bet 1/2 pot because he has many top pairs, and there are a very small amount of nutted combos he could check-raise us with. He would probably not raise with bottom set, for example, on such as scary board.
    JX - Check, too thin value, 58% of his hands beat us if we had KJ.
    Ace high - TT and 9Ts are the only conceivable hands he could fold. We barely have any fold equity at all especially against a calling station so best to just check.

    Insights: Turn seems scary, but he in fact doesn't have many heart combos, and shouldn't have many straight combos based on his preflop raising range. Interesting that the brick 2 didn't change ANYTHING, literally.

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