Deep Stack Tournament - Questionable fold?

baptista1371baptista1371 Red Chipper Posts: 9
Hey guys, I've been lurking the Red Chip Forums for a while now and finally decided to start posting. I got into an interesting spot that keeps replaying in my head from a local tournament this last weekend. I would like your input!
It's a live $350 buy-in, 30,000 starting chips, 40 minute levels.

Level: 1600 / 800 / 200 ante

Villain with 150,000 UTG Bets 9,200
Folds around to Hero with 80,000 in the Small Blind :AS: :QH: - Calls 9,200
Big Blind Folds

Flop :2s :4d :5h

Hero Checks

Villain Checks

Turn :Ac

Hero Bets 15,000

Villain Raises to 45,000

Hero Folds

I was hesitant to play for stacks at this level of the tournament. With 30BB remaining and 40 minute levels, was it a wise fold or was it worth jeopardizing my entire stack with simply top pair 2nd kicker?

Thinking more and more about it, maybe I should have checked the turn and called down for showdown value to control the size of the pot.

Let me know if I missed any important details.

Thank you all in advance!




Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,975 -
    Just to be clear, did he really open more than 5x?

    Also, check the turn. Give him room to fire rather than create room where you can bet/fold because you almost never have a 2 here...
  • baptista1371baptista1371 Red Chipper Posts: 9
    edited December 2016
    He did open for more than 5x! Which really made me hate calling that pre-flop bet with AQ. I think that large bet got me out of my comfort zone. I prefer to keep the pots as small as possible... the low-ball approach. The range I put him on for making that large of a bet is: 66 - JJ, AK, AQ, essentially a hand he was hoping to get heads up with but comfortable enough to take down the pot preflop. He's a semi-loose aggressive player.

    Which brings up another question. Would you ever lay down a hand like AQ OOP to a large bet like that?
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,975 -
    It takes a crowbar (or a TON of info) to get me to fold AQ preflop lol

    Had he used this sizing in other hands?
  • baptista1371baptista1371 Red Chipper Posts: 9
    They did a redraw for seats to resume day 2 of the tournament, so I only had a few hours of play with him. It was the first time that I noticed him use the sizing in that small of time window. For the most part he was using a 3x-3.5x opener.
  • JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    Welcome to the forum @baptista1371 ! I'm glad you are no longer lurking... :)

    Uggggg. I hate calling there too in a tourney to such a large open with AQ! Do you think he was raising that large because he was opening OOP? Just a thought since you put about 22k in anyway. How do you think he would of reacted to a 3 bet from you for about 20k-22k? I don't really know the player....

    As played I can't fault you for the call. I like to check call when OOP like that. If he is that aggro I just let him feed me. Why are you betting to fold when re raised on the turn?

  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    If he's on the range you've assigned, then you're way ahead of his range on the turn w/ 72% equity. I like your value bet on the turn as he should be calling a lot if he sees you as a bit too loose. When he raises, what hands do you think we can remove from that range?
  • baptista1371baptista1371 Red Chipper Posts: 9
    Jules wrote: »
    Welcome to the forum @baptista1371 ! I'm glad you are no longer lurking... :)

    Uggggg. I hate calling there too in a tourney to such a large open with AQ! Do you think he was raising that large because he was opening OOP? Just a thought since you put about 22k in anyway. How do you think he would of reacted to a 3 bet from you for about 20k-22k? I don't really know the player....

    As played I can't fault you for the call. I like to check call when OOP like that. If he is that aggro I just let him feed me. Why are you betting to fold when re raised on the turn?

    Thanks Jules!

    I think part of it yes; it was due to him being OOP. I do think he was trying to isolate down to one caller or take it down preflop. I did consider a 3 bet but I hate doing that out of position for the remainder of the hand, especially when I miss. He may have laid it down to a raise, but the live games at my local casino are so soft that I didn’t feel like a gamble was necessary with my current chip stack.

    I’ll seriously consider the check / call line next time. The reason I bet was to get value for my hand. I guess I didn’t plan ahead as to what would happen if he had raised.
  • baptista1371baptista1371 Red Chipper Posts: 9
    tripletire wrote: »
    If he's on the range you've assigned, then you're way ahead of his range on the turn w/ 72% equity. I like your value bet on the turn as he should be calling a lot if he sees you as a bit too loose. When he raises, what hands do you think we can remove from that range?

    We can remove 88, 99, TT, JJ , but add A2s, A3s, A4s, A5s, 22, 44, 55 as possibilities?
  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    tripletire wrote: »
    If he's on the range you've assigned, then you're way ahead of his range on the turn w/ 72% equity. I like your value bet on the turn as he should be calling a lot if he sees you as a bit too loose. When he raises, what hands do you think we can remove from that range?

    We can remove 88, 99, TT, JJ , but add A2s, A3s, A4s, A5s, 22, 44, 55 as possibilities?

    You can't add hands to his range, only way this works is if you have information on the villain and can add those balancing hands to his range preflop. I think it's totally reasonable that he has some bluffs here, what's your read on this guy? Because it's totally dependent on your read whether or not you should call him down here. If he has shown lots of bluffs before or has been playing overly aggressive then it'd be ideal to look him up with this hand.
  • baptista1371baptista1371 Red Chipper Posts: 9
    tripletire wrote: »
    tripletire wrote: »
    If he's on the range you've assigned, then you're way ahead of his range on the turn w/ 72% equity. I like your value bet on the turn as he should be calling a lot if he sees you as a bit too loose. When he raises, what hands do you think we can remove from that range?

    We can remove 88, 99, TT, JJ , but add A2s, A3s, A4s, A5s, 22, 44, 55 as possibilities?

    You can't add hands to his range, only way this works is if you have information on the villain and can add those balancing hands to his range preflop. I think it's totally reasonable that he has some bluffs here, what's your read on this guy? Because it's totally dependent on your read whether or not you should call him down here. If he has shown lots of bluffs before or has been playing overly aggressive then it'd be ideal to look him up with this hand.

    I have played a lot of live cash games with the Villain and know he's more than capable of a bluff. The regs have nicknamed him 2-pair-Juan because that's what he's always showing down. Maybe I let that get to my head.

    If I am suspect of a bluff or him betting with a worse hand, would you ever recommend shoving to his bet?

    He did show his hand after I mucked, if you're interested?
  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    tripletire wrote: »
    tripletire wrote: »
    If he's on the range you've assigned, then you're way ahead of his range on the turn w/ 72% equity. I like your value bet on the turn as he should be calling a lot if he sees you as a bit too loose. When he raises, what hands do you think we can remove from that range?

    We can remove 88, 99, TT, JJ , but add A2s, A3s, A4s, A5s, 22, 44, 55 as possibilities?

    You can't add hands to his range, only way this works is if you have information on the villain and can add those balancing hands to his range preflop. I think it's totally reasonable that he has some bluffs here, what's your read on this guy? Because it's totally dependent on your read whether or not you should call him down here. If he has shown lots of bluffs before or has been playing overly aggressive then it'd be ideal to look him up with this hand.

    I have played a lot of live cash games with the Villain and know he's more than capable of a bluff. The regs have nicknamed him 2-pair-Juan because that's what he's always showing down. Maybe I let that get to my head.

    If I am suspect of a bluff or him betting with a worse hand, would you ever recommend shoving to his bet?

    He did show his hand after I mucked, if you're interested?

    Well you have to assume that this guy is going to fire again on any river and you'll be all in anyways, so a push from you might be an interesting play. Or it could be a huge punt haha, it depends on the villain. I honestly don't know for sure.

    It's always nice when he shows after a muck as you get so much more information, did it confirm/change the range you put him on?
  • baptista1371baptista1371 Red Chipper Posts: 9
    tripletire wrote: »
    tripletire wrote: »
    tripletire wrote: »
    If he's on the range you've assigned, then you're way ahead of his range on the turn w/ 72% equity. I like your value bet on the turn as he should be calling a lot if he sees you as a bit too loose. When he raises, what hands do you think we can remove from that range?

    We can remove 88, 99, TT, JJ , but add A2s, A3s, A4s, A5s, 22, 44, 55 as possibilities?

    You can't add hands to his range, only way this works is if you have information on the villain and can add those balancing hands to his range preflop. I think it's totally reasonable that he has some bluffs here, what's your read on this guy? Because it's totally dependent on your read whether or not you should call him down here. If he has shown lots of bluffs before or has been playing overly aggressive then it'd be ideal to look him up with this hand.

    I have played a lot of live cash games with the Villain and know he's more than capable of a bluff. The regs have nicknamed him 2-pair-Juan because that's what he's always showing down. Maybe I let that get to my head.

    If I am suspect of a bluff or him betting with a worse hand, would you ever recommend shoving to his bet?

    He did show his hand after I mucked, if you're interested?

    Well you have to assume that this guy is going to fire again on any river and you'll be all in anyways, so a push from you might be an interesting play. Or it could be a huge punt haha, it depends on the villain. I honestly don't know for sure.

    It's always nice when he shows after a muck as you get so much more information, did it confirm/change the range you put him on?

    He showed 99 :(
  • JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    He showed 99 :(

    Gross! :(

    Since y'all have played together before he possibly has a read on you. Maybe you would lay down top pair if he applied enough pressure?? Or is he not that much of a thinking player?
  • baptista1371baptista1371 Red Chipper Posts: 9
    Jules wrote: »
    He showed 99 :(

    Gross! :(

    Since y'all have played together before he possibly has a read on you. Maybe you would lay down top pair if he applied enough pressure?? Or is he not that much of a thinking player?

    He's a smart thinking player. He essentially told me he was wanting to represent AK with his raise hoping to get a weaker Ace to fold. I simply got outplayed. Maybe he was basing my play preflop off live cash where I would 3-bet AK preflop.
  • GazelligGazellig RCP Coach Posts: 74 ✭✭
    This last point doesn't really make logical sense - why would he want a weaker Ace to fold if he held AK?
  • baptista1371baptista1371 Red Chipper Posts: 9
    Gazellig wrote: »
    This last point doesn't really make logical sense - why would he want a weaker Ace to fold if he held AK?

    Are you saying a call on the turn from him would make more sense if he had AK?
  • GazelligGazellig RCP Coach Posts: 74 ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Yeah I think so. If someone had the best hand they wouldn't want you to fold. I think you can call his raise on the turn as you would all of your sets, straights and two pairs. He's only really repping 33. All in all I think he should probably flat with his entire continuing range given that he can't represent very strong hands and has a lot of marginal hands that want to call and re-evaluate the river. From a range perspective I think you have way more two pair+ hands than he does. Does that help/make sense?
  • vandwellervandweller Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    This is definitely an example of why one-pair hands hate SPRs of 10. If I hit top pair here, I'm just trying to get my one street of value as cautiously as I can without bloating the pot beyond what the hand can withstand. Without a read, I think an EP raiser raising 5x (an action-discouraging raise size), is pretty much on AK-AQ, TT-JJ and sometimes 99 & QQ. And not much more than that. That means I'm check-calling this turn and calling a reasonable river bet (but hoping not to have to). If the action gets too big, I can let a hand like this go and live to fight another day. He leveled you on this hand, so congratulate him and file it away for later.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Turn lead makes zero sense unless you are trying to level him by looking stupid with the intention is to induce. This is fundamentals, not even tournament stuff.

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