Ed's 3rd hand of the week flop tecture question

EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
edited January 2015 in General Concepts
This hand comes from Ed's 3rd hand of the week Email...

In this hand the flop came
:Qc:Tc:9d

Villain having raised pre flop, Ed called from the SB...villain then checked back this flop...

Ed now states
My opponent should bet the lion's share of his range on this flop (because it's a particularly good flop for a preflop raiser in position).

This I don't quite understand...to me this board hits the blind callers range, and if I don't have any equity, it would be an easy check back to give up....or I would have to think about triple barreling, something I try to avoid planning to do on the flop without equity...

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Before Mr. Miller answers, let me tell you my interpretation and see if I am at all close.

    When I read this one, he somewhat implied that villain a very wide opening range from this position, the Q10s + kind of range, so that while this was not necessarily a cbet in a classic nine handed from EP kind of situation, in this spot, the villain will have many hands that either hit this flop, or better starting hands that can charge this flop's many drawing hands. Therefore, he deduced that villain has completely whiffed and thinks that this flop will hit Ed's range. This is how I would read the situation and why I would try to take it away, and maybe what he meant as well.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    by persuadeo on January 25th, 2015
    Before Mr. Miller answers, let me tell you my interpretation and see if I am at all close.

    When I read this one, he somewhat implied that villain a very wide opening range from this position, the Q10s + kind of range, so that while this was not necessarily a cbet in a classic nine handed from EP kind of situation, in this spot, the villain will have many hands that either hit this flop, or better starting hands that can charge this flop's many drawing hands. Therefore, he deduced that villain has completely whiffed and thinks that this flop will hit Ed's range. This is how I would read the situation and why I would try to take it away, and maybe what he meant as well.

    I may stated my question wrong. I see why Ed played the hand his way, I would also. What I don't see is why Ed thinks this is a board that should be bet by the Villain often. As the villain if I missed this board I check it back and give up most of the time.

    If I read it correctly Ed seems to think the Villain should be betting this board with most of his range.
  • Ed MillerEd Miller RCP Coach Posts: 330
    Why would this flop hit a blind caller's range better than a preflop raiser's range?

    Boards like these are particularly difficult to play from out of position. This is more true the deeper you are... the advantage isn't so great if you're just a check-shove away from getting all-in.

    When deeper, however, the in position player can leverage this advantage by betting more hands.
  • Ed MillerEd Miller RCP Coach Posts: 330
    Put another way, you're going to bet most of the hands that have equity on flops like this one. So when you check back, it should mean that you have little to no equity. Which means I can just bet turn and expect you to fold.

    That can't be right, can it? Not on a board like this one where you can really torture someone for being out of position.

    Having said that, most hands in a preflop raising range are going to have some equity on this flop.
  • karbynkarbyn Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    As a complimentary example (and a countering one bc of the 3-bet), here's a hand from my last live session. Here, after a 3 bet, the reraisers range is much narrower.

    I raised T9 from EP to $12 ($1/$2. My std raise, and typical raises are $10-17). Folded to the cutoff who re-raised to $30. Folded to me. He had $300, I covered. He was a typical 50s semi-regular. Bc of this, his range is fairly narrow (AA-JJ, and AK) with weighting on the lower range because of the smallish size ... the upper range I would expect $40 to ensure no one else calls. Anything worse like AQ or TT, he would generally just flat. If I can narrow your range that much bc of your style, betting patterns, physical or verbal tells, etc, then I will call with a huge range of hands bc I know where I am and what I need to beat you (either good cards or a good bluff lol). So I call.

    Flop comes QJx rainbow. I check, not bc I have nothing, but bc he showed strength and I don't want to get raised off my draw. But he checks too. Now I can eliminate AA and KK from his range. The board is too dangerous to check and give me a free card. Even AK is somewhat doubtful to check having 2 overs and a gutterball. So that mostly leaves him flopping a set.

    Turn is the dreamy 8. If I check and raise it will look suspicious. If I lead and then 3 bet, most of the money would be in, and it would be hard for him to fold. So I lead for half pot, $30. He grabs lots of chips, thinks, and goes to $90. I pause to review to be sure (flushes, board pairing, etc), but mostly for effect. I know he is not folding a set here. So I shove, he calls.

    The river bricks and I take down ~$600 pot. He tosses JJ face up and moans about my bad play.
    Ed Miller wrote:
    Put another way, you're going to bet most of the hands that have equity on flops like this one. So when you check back, it should mean that you have little to no equity. Which means I can just bet turn and expect you to fold.
    Here is one of those spots where he does NOT have little to no equity. He in fact has most or all of the equity*. Which means when I improve beyond your range, I can bet the turn and expect you to raise - and not fold. The best definition of implied odds! Like Ed says, even with 44 I can bet the turn and expect you to fold most of the times. The times when you don't is when I need to be careful.


    * Most or all of the equity might mean AsKs on a QsJc4s board. Or 44 on a As9c4d board. In my experience, most will check back top 2 pair (esp AK or AQ) or better when in position

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