Etiquette of showing only one card?

chip_hoggchip_hogg Red Chipper Posts: 66 ✭✭
edited January 2017 in General Concepts
Under what circumstances can a player show only one card at showdown time? Does this vary between home games, card rooms, casinos?

If they do, can I ask to see both cards? Should I? What if I'm not in the hand, but paying attention and trying to learn how they play?
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  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 806 ✭✭✭
    Funny topic, at Foxwood (Conn) its the wild west at showdown. Anything goes. Someone might show you a card to try to get a read or change your decision.
    At Twin River, where I also play, talking heads up is not allowed and showing cards results in the killing of the hand. Different rooms, different rules so make sure you know the rules where you are playing. Just because one dealer let it slide once doesn't mean the next dealer won't enforce the rules. I once had a player muck face down on top of my face up hand at showdown. I had the winner but the dealer tried to get the hand killed. Always keep your hands on your cards or a chip for your own protection. It is always the players responsibility to protect his own hand. I think showing cards to get a read is in the angle shooting category. My feeling is that showing a card is the players last resort before he folds so if you want him to continue with that action then do nothing. He will probably continue with whatever action he was going to take (in this case fold). If you want to change his decision give him some reaction that might get him to rethink. I try not to show cards for any reason.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,567 -
    edited December 2016
    You can show one card at any time. You can show both at any time. Showing just one is meaningless for winning a showdown though.

    At showdown, the best tabled hand wins the pot. A tabled hand is two cards, face up on the felt, clearly visible. Even if the one card shown is enough to win, both must be shown to verify the player had a valid hand.

    If a player is given :As :As he has a bit of a freeroll. If he can win by just showing one of his :As he can win. If he is going to lose, he can say wait "There are two :As in the deck, we all get out money back." That is why you must show both to win.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    most casino poker room rules require two cards to be shown to win the hand.
    but if one person bets and the other(s) mucks, no one is required to show anything.

    there is a rule - "show one, show all" which is often enforced when you show somebody your hand before mucking (usually the winning hand) - then dealer can turn the cards face up for the whole table to see so that one person doesn't have an info advantage.

    when players are all in - anyone at the table is allowed to request to see all hands at showdown. this rule was designed to prevent collusion. but is often used to gain information.

    this is where etiquette comes in. It is normally poor etiquette to request to see the loser's hand (unless you suspect collusion). the loser just lost a big pot - often due to a bluff gone wrong, getting out flopped, or a a bad beat - asking to see his hand displayed to the whole table often pours salt in the fresh wound. and can cause embarrassment for the player.

    note: when players ask to see a hand at showdown, dealer normally "kills" the hand so if it were to win it can't. BUT if the winner of the hand asks to see his opponents cards and they win (because player misread his hand) - then they are live and can win the pot.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You should always try to see both cards just to know what people played. This is normally enforced by the house. If it's not, just try to ask in such a way that you're not the table nit. For example, you could wait until the hand is over, and then ask the dealer "Do we need to show both cards here?" If no (weird), then don't show both your cards anymore if you don't need them both to win. (If you flip over a K for a pair of kings, then your opponent flips over a K, then you're going to have to flip over your kicker to win the pot.) But usually the dealer will then announce to the table "Yeah guys, we have to show both cards."
  • chip_hoggchip_hogg Red Chipper Posts: 66 ✭✭
    I had thought of doing the "hey, I paid to see em" angle. Or of simply waiting silently until both cards are tabled -- I think I heard that from one of the podcasts? But I do worry about being within my rights, but pissing people off.

    Overall, it sounds like they do have to show both to win at showdown, but if the other person mucks, then they don't. So I guess if I want to see them, I can just not muck until they show.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's a lot of this going on, especially in home games where dealers don't want to annoy people. I'm pretty much done playing games waiting for people to show. It's kind of annoying when I really want to see if some guy is bluffing and has to show first, but the other guy (in position) calls and then just throws his cards down. When I'm in a hand, I simply sit there and wait patiently. If they say "you're good", I just sit there and wait. If they say "2 pair", I just sit there and wait. If they say "your straight is good", I just sit there and wait. I just got tired of playing games and getting angled. There are times I might want to speed the game up, but long term, the game gets sped up when they know they have to show first so they might as well get it over with, because I'm just going to sit there and wait. If they're bluffing and they muck, then I just sit there and wait until the pot has been pushed to me, and then I muck without showing.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭✭
    To add to the excellent comments above, if I'm in a hand and want to see my opponents cards (which is rare), then I simply turn to the dealer and say, "I'd like to see V's cards".

    That's it. No explanation needed, no defensiveness, no apologies. It's within my right. There will never be a justification good enough that I could offer that would assuage V and not make V think that I'm an a**hole, and just stating it is a much more confident play than waffling (goes back to table image...).

    Once in a while, someone will ask me -- with more than a hint of critique -- why I wanted to see the cards. I respond curtly but not rudely, "Because I did".

    Just like when you're betting, calling, or raising, own your choices at the table and be confident about them!
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @moishetreats, when you're asking to villain's cards, do you mean the situation where they only turn one over when it's their turn to show?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭✭
    @jeffnc: Those situations, sure, but also say that they call my bet, and I show the nuts. There are times when I want to see their cards; I'm entitled to (I usually don't ask to see, but every once in a while want to; and I don't try to justify it).
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,838 -
    chip_hogg wrote: »
    Under what circumstances can a player show only one card at showdown time? Does this vary between home games, card rooms, casinos?

    If they do, can I ask to see both cards? Should I? What if I'm not in the hand, but paying attention and trying to learn how they play?

    1. You can almost always do this in cash games - not so much in tournaments
    2. Yes, ask the floor first. I've played in odd rooms where my hand has been deemed dead because I flipped up a card in the middle of a hand (in a HU cash game pot)
    3. No. There is a "show one/show all" rule which people think applies here...it does not.
    4. You should rarely show cards and give away from free information - so showing 2 seems even worse =)
    5. There are times when you have the 'right' to ask to see the other player's cards at showdown. I think you should almost never utilize this rule (unless you suspect cheating in any way).
    My latest poker course brings the popular book 'Poker's 1%' to life- The One Percent
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    @jeffnc: Those situations, sure, but also say that they call my bet, and I show the nuts. There are times when I want to see their cards; I'm entitled to (I usually don't ask to see, but every once in a while want to; and I don't try to justify it).

    In that case, see SplitSuit's answer #5. Whether or not you're entitled is kind of a gray area and up to the floor (see that ss put "right" in quotes). The reason you're getting asked with "more than a hint of critique" is because of the reason for the rule - it basically exists to avoid collusion or cheating. So in effect, what you're saying is "I suspect that person of cheating - I want to see his cards." And your evasive answer probably doesn't do anything to change that impression. Most casinos will not allow you to do this more than once or twice without giving them a good reason why you are asking, and then they won't allow it anymore.

    Since this is a thread on etiquette, I'd say your request is viewed as poor etiquette by the other players at the table, unless you really do suspect them of cheating :)
  • rabidjazzrabidjazz Red Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    You can show one card at any time. You can show both at any time. Showing just one is meaningless for winning a showdown though.

    The bolded is room dependent. There are rooms out there that do not allow the showing of cards in cash games at all until showdown. An example that immediately comes to mind is the new MGM room at the National Harbor (in MD).

    What I usually see happen at showdown when a player tries to win by showing one card is the dealer tells player he needs to show 2 cards to win, and the player flips over the other card. I've never seen anyone risk losing a hand by refusing to show their second card.

    -rJ

    ETA: I have never seen a dealer not enforce this rule except when an opponent mucks his hand upon seeing the single card. Even then, many dealers will insist the other card be shown.

    If it is me, and the dealer does not insist the other card be shown, I will—either before I table my hand, or after.

    But, I would never ask to see a mucked losing hand unless I suspected some kind of cheating was going on.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,567 -
    rabidjazz wrote: »

    I've never seen anyone risk losing a hand by refusing to show their second card.

    I have.

    I mentioned this in a podcast: WSOP cash, I was observing. Broadway, unsuited on the board on river. Guy shoves, the idiot in question says "I call, I play the board, then immediately mucks his hand." He is surprised that he loses his call and the pot, even after the Floor is called.

    I was in a hand: a single Ace is the nuts (Broadway) on river. I shove, Villain calls. He sees my Ace and 'kicker' (when I am playing Broadway with a single Ace) shows his Ace for all to see, but does not table. Everyone looks at him, I wait patiently. He just keeps showing his single Ace (but not tabling his hand) I say "Muck or show." He mucks.

    This kind of thing happens often enough that you are freerolling in these spots. Showdown is part of the game and people find a way to mess it up.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    He just keeps showing his single Ace (but not tabling his hand) I say "Muck or show." He mucks.

    Crazy!

  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 180 ✭✭
    I was in a room recently where the dealer had confirmed that you weren't allowed to talk or show any of your cards during a hand in a cash game. After the dealer announced this I quickly proclaimed "yeah, and your not allowed to check raise either". Another player, I think a reg. said "you are too allowed to check raise". I just grinned. I don't believe anyone had picked up on the sarcasm. This was at the Hollywood Casino in Grantsville, PA around 11 AM on a Saturday morning. They currently have a BBJpot of $544K. Quad jacks or better.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    After the dealer announced this I quickly proclaimed "yeah, and your not allowed to check raise either". Another player, I think a reg. said "you are too allowed to check raise". I just grinned.

    Funny. I also used to laugh when in a casino I'd see a sign reading "CHECK AND RAISE IS ALLOWED." Oooookaaaaay.

    According to wikipedia, check/raise is "frequently not allowed in the game of California lowball."
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Funny. I also used to laugh when in a casino I'd see a sign reading "CHECK AND RAISE IS ALLOWED." Oooookaaaaay.

    According to wikipedia, check/raise is "frequently not allowed in the game of California lowball."

    check/raising used to be considered "poor etiquette" by old school players - you should bet your hand. And if you didn't, you should just call.

    I think Doyle and Puggy probably have stories of guys getting their fingers broken for check/raising certain home games....
  • nicnameksnicnameks Red Chipper Posts: 57 ✭✭
    tfazio wrote: »
    I once had a player muck face down on top of my face up hand at showdown. I had the winner but the dealer tried to get the hand killed. Always keep your hands on your cards or a chip for your own protection.

    I would have beat the shit out of that person.

  • volcanovolcano Red Chipper Posts: 320 ✭✭
    no more tips for that dealer
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Speaking of killing a hand when other cards hit them - let's say someone throws their cards away, and let's say one or two of those cards slid into your cards. Then it wouldn't matter if you had a chip on your cards or not - your hand can be called dead. Nothing you did wrong - you "protected" your hand. Seems like it would be pretty easy to kill someone else's hand on purpose that way.
  • nicnameksnicnameks Red Chipper Posts: 57 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Speaking of killing a hand when other cards hit them - let's say someone throws their cards away, and let's say one or two of those cards slid into your cards. Then it wouldn't matter if you had a chip on your cards or not - your hand can be called dead. Nothing you did wrong - you "protected" your hand. Seems like it would be pretty easy to kill someone else's hand on purpose that way.

    I could be wrong, but isn't that what a chip protector is for? To avoid confusion as to which cards are mucked, and which are still in play?
  • chip_hoggchip_hogg Red Chipper Posts: 66 ✭✭
    The weight of the card protector should prevent those cards from sliding under your cards.
  • nicnameksnicnameks Red Chipper Posts: 57 ✭✭
    Also, I have a semi-related story from my home room. Bocky can attest they are sticklers for some rules.

    I had been playing at a 1/3 table for about an hour on the direct left of a guy who had about $900 in front of him. I'd never seen him before, but he said he ran a weekly home-game in a neighboring town. He was drinking, but my first impression was that he knew what he was doing and was a decent player.

    He was pretty aggressive and had most players on the defensive. He even stole a pot or two from me with probably worse holdings. But as time went on I noticed him getting drunker and drunker. He misplayed some hands, but his stack still grew.

    He was also growingly boarish (but in a friendly way) and would also routinely fold out of turn, show one card to try and get a read, table talk when not appropriate. The dealers warned him over and over.

    Then came a hand against one of the retired Asian rec/regs. This guy is a notorious slow-roller and angle shooter, who often acts like he can't understand English but certainly can. Long story short, drunk guy gets it in for $400+ on 4-diamond board and starts talking... "I got it old man. You don't want to call me." Old Asian eventually calls and Drunk slides his hand forward A :diamond up, other card face down.

    Dealer says, "I told you before you have to show both cards to win at showdown."
    Dude flips up the other card and dealer starts to push pot.

    "NO!" says Old Asian. "He muck. I win. He bet, I call, he muck, I win." Over and over. Dealer calls floor. Floor says hand is mucked. They argue for 5 minutes or so. Guy threatens poker mgr he's friends with a gaming guy at casino. They go to cameras. Eventually guy gives up pot and stays. Fuming.

    Good thing for me he ended up punting about $800 to me afterwards on pure monkey tilt. I even told him "Dude, I don't usually say this, but you should just go home," about 5 minutes before taking his last $400 or so.

    Thanks Old Asian.

    Bad thing is I think the guy genuinely liked playing at the casino, but that experience cost the card room a good customer. He hasn't been back since.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    After the dealer announced this I quickly proclaimed "yeah, and your not allowed to check raise either". Another player, I think a reg. said "you are too allowed to check raise". I just grinned.

    Funny. I also used to laugh when in a casino I'd see a sign reading "CHECK AND RAISE IS ALLOWED." Oooookaaaaay.

    According to wikipedia, check/raise is "frequently not allowed in the game of California lowball."

    Beau Rivage in Biloxi has this on their sign
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Speaking of killing a hand when other cards hit them - let's say someone throws their cards away, and let's say one or two of those cards slid into your cards. Then it wouldn't matter if you had a chip on your cards or not - your hand can be called dead. Nothing you did wrong - you "protected" your hand. Seems like it would be pretty easy to kill someone else's hand on purpose that way.

    I don't know where you guys play - but where I play, the muck is the muck.
    the board is not the muck.
    other players cards are not the muck.
    pushing your cards past the bet line is not the muck.

    the muck is the discarded pile of cards next to the dealer that includes folded cards and cards killed before each street.

    if your cards never touch that pile, your cards are not technically dead.
    I've seen guys toss their cards face down and they hit the board, but then retrieve them to win or split a pot.

    you can toss your cards into mine all you want - you're not killing my hand... unless you do so before I actually take possession of them and we can't figure out which cards are which.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's the whole point - once a card slides into my cards, there's no way of knowing which cards are which. A card protector cannot protect cards against a card sliding into them. Anyone who's seen a card get stuck under the rail can imagine how easy it is for a card to get stuck under other cards. Really all a card "protector" does is show the dealer that those cards are still in play.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    That's the whole point - once a card slides into my cards, there's no way of knowing which cards are which. A card protector cannot protect cards against a card sliding into them. Anyone who's seen a card get stuck under the rail can imagine how easy it is for a card to get stuck under other cards. Really all a card "protector" does is show the dealer that those cards are still in play.
    If I've looked at my cards and capped them with a chip - and then you tossed yours and one gets under my chip - I would tell the dealer - I know my cards, they are X of X and X of X - dealer would then look at all 3 cards, discard yours and give me mine back.
    no muck. no fuss.

    If I was too busy with cocktail waitress and you mucked your hand into mine before I even looked, then I'm outta luck.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In many rooms if someone else's cards touch your cards or get stuck under them, your hand is dead, whether your Ronald Reagan memorial silver dollar is on it or not.

    I saw this once and it enraged the person who thought their cards were protected.

    So he got revenge:

    On the next hand, he flung his cards into his antagonist's cards, and so both hands were dead!

    Now that's reciprocity.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    kagey wrote: »
    If I've looked at my cards and capped them with a chip - and then you tossed yours and one gets under my chip - I would tell the dealer - I know my cards, they are X of X and X of X - dealer would then look at all 3 cards, discard yours and give me mine back. no muck. no fuss.

    Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the room. But in response to that, I'd say that in some card rooms they will do the same thing with the muck. You say the dealer took my cards, the floor comes over and asks you to tell you the cards, and looks for them in the muck. This actually happened in the World Series for example.

    So really it's up to the card room, but you should assume that if one or both of your cards touch the muck, your hand is dead, and if another card gets into your hand, your hand is dead.

  • volcanovolcano Red Chipper Posts: 320 ✭✭
    when a random does a huge overbet pre its usually a pair between 99 and jj I made a joke tonight about just shoving my cards into theirs and claiming I had jj
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