Range vs Range analysis head-scratcher

kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
When doing range vs. range, street by street review...
conventional wisdom says that the combos we bet are the ONLY combos we should choose from on future streets.
which makes sense from a frequency POV, but not from a reality standpoint.

Say we're in position and we raise from CO and get called by SB & BB.
Let's use Ed's range:
AA-66, AKs-A2s.... blah, blah, blah (we all know it... it's in multiple videos...)

Flop is :Ks :Tc :2h
I'm not going to go thru the # of combos I value bet and bluff...
let's say after the flop card removal... it's 176 or so.
And using the 70% goalpost, we're shooting to be aggressive with 123 combos.
(Be aggressive. Be, be aggressive!)

So I value bet 41 combos and bluffed 82 for a total of 123.

So far so good.

But what did I do with the remaining 44?
It's not like I mucked them and gave the pot to the blinds.
No, I still have them.
They're now part of my "silent minority."

Consider this:
I kept a couple of combos of KK as part of my check/back - as I did 66 & 77.
Do I totally ignore those hands when the :6D: turn comes?

Can't I choose to check back 2 combos of KK and 3 combos of 66... but put them into my range on the turn?

After all, if I checked in position... I'd still have them... right?

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,505 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Is it legalized there or not?
    and here I was anticipating words of wisdom from a true outlier....
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,505 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 304 ✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    So far so good.

    But what did I do with the remaining 44?
    It's not like I mucked them and gave the pot to the blinds.
    No, I still have them.
    They're now part of my "silent minority."

    Consider this:
    I kept a couple of combos of KK as part of my check/back - as I did 66 & 77.
    Do I totally ignore those hands when the :6D: turn comes?

    Can't I choose to check back 2 combos of KK and 3 combos of 66... but put them into my range on the turn?

    After all, if I checked in position... I'd still have them... right?

    I'm intrigued but confused. This is a head-scratcher!

    If you bet some hands and check others, your range gets forked. Hands that you don't bet are in your check-back range. They therefore can't be in your bet flop, bet turn range. But they could be in your check flop, bet turn range.

    Or, as I think you're getting at, you can play a mixed strategy with certain hands. Then some combos of KK (for example) could be in both ranges.

    Mixed strategies can be difficult to implement in practice. There are ways you can toy with this in PioSolver (which I just bought and want to post about soon) to look at how much EV is lost if you shift from a mixed to a pure strategy.

    What was your question again?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,505 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you hold some combos back, of course they are still there.

    You are imagining a problem that doesn't exist. This is a weighted range in action - you have some of this here, and a little bit of that here.

    BTW, love the term "silent minority" for certain portions of the range.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,909 -
    persuadeo wrote: »
    You are imagining a problem that doesn't exist. This is a weighted range in action - you have some of this here, and a little bit of that here.

    This is also how I understood your question @kagey
    My latest poker course brings the popular book 'Poker's 1%' to life- The One Percent
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    You are imagining a problem that doesn't exist. This is a weighted range in action - you have some of this here, and a little bit of that here.

    This is also how I understood your question @kagey
    @SplitSuit

    In Constructing Ranges Part 4 - @Doug Hull & Tim talk of a hand where Hero is in position - and chooses a betting and bluffing range on the :9c :2s :3s flop.
    :As :Ks is put in the "check/back" range.
    While 66 is not bet at all.

    On the :6C: turn -
    they further define their range to include :CLUB: draws and such, but they don't pick up 66... which was never folded.

    On the :2h: river -
    I'd say 66 would be a hand that I would value bet.
    But it's been eliminated from our range because it was never bet.

    While the point of the exercise is to make decisions off the table and discover the ranges that we show up with on the river.... seems to me that when we're in position and last to act - our turn range could in reality be very different from our flop range if we put strong hands and very weak ones in our check/back range. no?

    shouldn't we be allowed to review our entire range on the turn and cherry-pick from that if we checked the turn?

    Or should I assume that if I check - they bet and I fold everything else?
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 570 ✭✭✭
    @kagey I watched some of that video you linked and I see the confusion. Tim(?) talks about his range for betting and checking on this board. He mentions that he would bet 88-44 to fold out equity from hands like AJ. When they get into Flopzilla Doug never enters 88-44 as bets on the flop. So, from that point forward, 66 is no longer in the range they are discussing (bet/bet/bet). 66 would be in the check back range. You can't value bet 66 on the river in the bet/bet/bet line if you didn't bet it on the flop. The idea is that you need to keep your entire range in mind when you arrive on the river so that you can bet with the correct frequencies. This is a massive shift in strategy if you are used to deciding on bet or check based on your actual hand.
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 304 ✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    So far so good.

    But what did I do with the remaining 44?
    It's not like I mucked them and gave the pot to the blinds.
    No, I still have them.
    They're now part of my "silent minority."

    Consider this:
    I kept a couple of combos of KK as part of my check/back - as I did 66 & 77.
    Do I totally ignore those hands when the :6D: turn comes?

    Can't I choose to check back 2 combos of KK and 3 combos of 66... but put them into my range on the turn?

    After all, if I checked in position... I'd still have them... right?

    I'm intrigued but confused. This is a head-scratcher!

    If you bet some hands and check others, your range gets forked. Hands that you don't bet are in your check-back range. They therefore can't be in your bet flop, bet turn range. But they could be in your check flop, bet turn range.

    Or, as I think you're getting at, you can play a mixed strategy with certain hands. Then some combos of KK (for example) could be in both ranges.

    Mixed strategies can be difficult to implement in practice. There are ways you can toy with this in PioSolver (which I just bought and want to post about soon) to look at how much EV is lost if you shift from a mixed to a pure strategy.

    What was your question again?
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 304 ✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    So far so good.

    But what did I do with the remaining 44?
    It's not like I mucked them and gave the pot to the blinds.
    No, I still have them.
    They're now part of my "silent minority."

    Consider this:
    I kept a couple of combos of KK as part of my check/back - as I did 66 & 77.
    Do I totally ignore those hands when the :6D: turn comes?

    Can't I choose to check back 2 combos of KK and 3 combos of 66... but put them into my range on the turn?

    After all, if I checked in position... I'd still have them... right?

    I'm intrigued but confused. This is a head-scratcher!

    If you bet some hands and check others, your range gets forked. Hands that you don't bet are in your check-back range. They therefore can't be in your bet flop, bet turn range. But they could be in your check flop, bet turn range.

    Or, as I think you're getting at, you can play a mixed strategy with certain hands. Then some combos of KK (for example) could be in both ranges.

    Mixed strategies can be difficult to implement in practice. There are ways you can toy with this in PioSolver (which I just bought and want to post about soon) to look at how much EV is lost if you shift from a mixed to a pure strategy.

    What was your question again?

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