Playing in position against 3 or more limpers

LaurenLauren Red Chipper Posts: 226 ✭✭
edited February 2 in General Concepts
Hello again,

i have watched Miller and Hull’s videos regarding preflop betting and raising and constructing ranges.

since I am playing xtra tight in EP (miller video) I am finding myself facing 3 or more limpers (sometimes 4 or 5). So these ideas are only about multiway limped pots….

I end up assuming there is a lot of high card removal (thinking folks are limping non premium broadway hands and small pairs)

which makes me want to limp behind with small pairs and connectors, suited or not. (I know limping is forbidden, but I find this situation too hard to resist if the blinds aren’t squeezing…)

I bomb the pot if I happen to have a premium hand, JJ-AA AK, AQs so I get folds instead of a bunch of callers and a bloated pot.. (is this a waste of a great hand, is there a way I could play this that makes more sense?? (I feel like these hands really diminish in quality against more than 2 people...)

and I get confused about what to do with 99-TT so I end up limping them too, which is a terrible waste of a great hand…….

1. do my assumptions sound reasonable?
2. what if any other assumptions make sense?
3. can you give me some things to think about to improve on this, especially medium pairs

thx for the help on this..
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Comments

  • the_tpupthe_tpup Red Chipper Posts: 75 ✭✭
    My last 5 sessions, I've been playing pretty close to "by the book" in Ed's "Crush 2/5" video. In terms of starting hands and looking for auto profit situations. The first 2 sessions was very tough and I found myself limping a few times a session. As I got more comfortable with the "no limp" rule - I found my PF hand selection increased.

    I also noticed that after a few orbits, my PFR gets more I guess respect, than if I just limped. Reason is because I can turn over that 9Js or be in the JJ / QQ area. The one area I only vary on is flatting with QQ in EP - I sometimes have been 3 betting it but I've been trying to get comfortable with the framework presented in the video.

    Sessions 3, 4, 5 I found myself a lot more comfortable with this new "framework" for playing 3/5. I even started looking for potential squeeze plays depending on the table vibe and the players I'm with.

    :)

    Btw Brenna - gonna hit you up tonight , I got tied up last couple of days
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 643 ✭✭✭
    "I bomb the pot if I happen to have a premium hand, JJ-AA AK, AQs so I get folds instead of a bunch of callers and a bloated pot.. (is this a waste of a great hand, is there a way I could play this that makes more sense?? (I feel like these hands really diminish in quality against more than 2 people...)"

    If I'm correctly understanding what you're saying, people seem to have figured you out. If you are only 'bombing' the pot with JJ+ and AQ+ people know to fold. Furthermore, by just calling with other hands you're opponents know you don't have JJ+ or AQ+ when you just call the BB. By always raising people don't know if this is the time you have :Ks :Kh or :Jd :Th or :Ac :3c .

    I would also add that it seems like you need to play tighter in later spots too. Just because everyone is limping and you pick up :Th :9c doesn't mean you should call. I only say this because I used to do the same thing and after working with Doug I've learned not too. It's a big leak. I've seen improvements by learning to just fold these hands.
  • LaurenLauren Red Chipper Posts: 226 ✭✭
    Skors, I think you are correct......

    after giving this some more thought i realized I am trying to adjust, in a poorly reasoned way, to a limpy table... As you stated, I am playing my cards face up, which is pretty much what they are doing with their limping....

    I will go back to "never limping" and fold the hands that i don't feel comfortable raising.....

    thx
  • karbynkarbyn Red Chipper Posts: 108
    Brenna wrote:
    I will go back to "never limping" and fold the hands that i don't feel comfortable raising.....thx
    The 'rule' is never open-limp. What this rule does is really makes you think about your EP range (it doesn't have to constrict you to tightening up, just make you think about what you're doing). If you have a hand you want to play, you must raise if you're the first one in the pot.

    For example ...
    1) You could limp 77 in the hijack with 3 limpers ahead of you (a classic set mining strategy). But you cannot limp in the hijack with 77 if no one has entered the pot before you.

    2) 2 limpers to you in the cutoff with T9o, feel free to limp as well (or raise or fold, but we're talking about limping here). If it's folded to you in the cutoff with T9o, feel free to raise or fold. Just don't limp.

    Just make sure you also balance your EP opening ranges (in fact from all positions) so you're not skewed to the top 10% of hands. I can give you plenty of examples of hands I've played where not balancing helps define opponents' hands. As can most people :)
  • the_tpupthe_tpup Red Chipper Posts: 75 ✭✭
    The 'rule' is never open-limp.

    I think we were referring to the rule per Ed in his "Crushing 2/5" video where he says about 900000 ways - "dont limp ever"

    I only say that not in a "you're wrong, i'm right" way - because thats not in any way I meant it. I just think me and Brenna are referring to the same video and trying to learn the techniques presented in that video.

    If I'm wrong - wouldnt be the first time :) :)

    The 77 example you bring up is one I always did and now that I'm trying it a different way , per the video series, I'm getting more comfortable with not limping but like anything new, it takes time to get accustomed I feel.
  • LaurenLauren Red Chipper Posts: 226 ✭✭
    thx for the replies Karbyn and pup.

    I am not remembering eactly if Mr. Miller said "No limping behind limpers", I took it to mean that though, which has worked out great except in the one situation where i get confused on the button with a low/med pair and med suited connectors and not wanting to put in an appropriate raise against multiple limpers...

    He doesn't really give his reasons for the rule, but i am actually glad that he doesn't. I really need to learn to think for myself if i want to get good at this game...

    so the best reason i can come up to never limp in this situation is that there is value in never allowing your opponents to play a limped pot with you......???
  • karbynkarbyn Red Chipper Posts: 108
    Brenna wrote:
    so the best reason i can come up to never limp in this situation is that there is value in never allowing your opponents to play a limped pot with you......???

    2 reasons ...

    1) for $2, people will play 92s. but not (usually) for $12. so when you have KQs flush and get raised you can be more certain they have AXs not 92s. So a raise narrows their range.

    2) for $2 it can be tempting to open limp with 92s from, say, the button. But then when the flush comes in you have no idea if your opponents in the blinds have J4s or 83s. But if you raise, they fold that junk. Thus a raise here also narrows their range. The advantage here is it does not necessarily narrow yours.
  • LaurenLauren Red Chipper Posts: 226 ✭✭
    exactly!

    i need the "rule" to protect me from myself.... ha ha ha!
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,498 -
    Brenna wrote:

    He doesn't really give his reasons for the rule, but i am actually glad that he doesn't. I really need to learn to think for myself if i want to get good at this game...

    so the best reason i can come up to never limp in this situation is that there is value in never allowing your opponents to play a limped pot with you......???

    Here is a non mathematical proof why you should not be limping or not often usually limping behind:

    You know that good feeling you get when you are in the big blind and someone reach chips to raise, but then they just limp? It feels good, yes?

    You know that good feeling when you limp and it looks like someone behind you is going to raise, but they do not? It feels good yes?

    Why would you give that good feeling to your opponents? You know they want you to limp or fold. Disappoint them.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • WhoanowWhoanow Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    I have also been experimenting the the "no limping" philosophy. To clarify, Ed definitely advocates no limping, ever. One of his reasons for never limping is that is doesn't split your range. If you only limp with certain types of hands, and only raise with certain types of hands, then that makes it easier for a good player to exploit you. In his second "No Limit Made Simple" video he says there are a few rare exceptions, but he goes on to say that it's not enough to make him change his never limp recommendation, but I'll admit that raising after several limpers (3+) is something I'm struggling with as well. For me, it's tough to raise 76s after 4 or 5 limpers because I know that in all likelihood at least 4 people are going to see the flop. I guess one answer is to tighten up if you have multiple limpers, but that would mean you have different ranges for the same position (one for opening or raising after a few limpers and one for raising after several limpers). Maybe that's necessary, but it just complicates things, and I get the feeling that Ed's trying to keep these ideas as simple as possible. Maybe this will be addressed in a future video. If not, I'm sure it will be discussed in his upcoming book.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,498 -
    Whoanow wrote:
    For me, it's tough to raise 76s after 4 or 5 limpers because I know that in all likelihood at least 4 people are going to see the flop.

    There are a couple of things to do here:

    Are you raising big enough? What do you raise to in a $1-$2 when there are four limpers already?

    I am making it about $20. If you are doing this and getting five to the flop, then you likely have about $100-$280 in your stack and the pot is $100. This means you have a stack to pot ratio of anywhere from one to three. What kinds of hands like small SPR? Top pair and overpairs like that SPR.

    If you can honestly say that you can raise that big over that many callers and bring them all along to the flop then you should be making pure value plays only. Raise hands that often make top pairs and over pairs.

    I doubt you are actually in such a gold mine of a game though.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • LaurenLauren Red Chipper Posts: 226 ✭✭
    Hello again!

    I have one more thing to share about this.
    after I started this post I decided to just try no limping and no completing from the small blind.

    I thought it would be limiting because I would be folding hands that i would prefer to play. It actually was the opposite, it was freeing. pre flop decisions were so easy, i could use all of my energy on post flop play, which is so much harder...

    I think it also made a big difference in how i am perceived at the table by my opponents..

    I would suggest anyone who hasn't tried it to do so. I think it has helped my game quite a bit and i am definitely sold.... no more limping...
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 643 ✭✭✭
    I think what's understated in your last post is that you aren't completing the SB. I know many people, myself in the past included, think it's only 1 more dollar (playing 1/2 of course). But I changed my perspective after reading The Elements of Poker.

    To paraphrase Mr. Angelo: "when you complete from the SB you're paying for the privilege of having the worst position every round post flop, with what's probably a pretty bad hand since you're just calling."

    Having a hand changes this a bit, of course, but generally speaking I just fold my SB no matter what the action is.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 647 ✭✭✭
    My rules Ive been using for the last 2 or so years has been don't limp 1st or 2nd in ever, and don't limp at any seat but the HJ (rarely) co (a bit more) btn. When I do limp I have a good reason.

    the reason are generally.
    1) I have unsuited high cards like KJo ATo QJo other AXo and less often AJ and KQ and a raise will be likely to give me a spr between 2 and 5. These hands play just fine in position in limped pots and get you in troupe with bad spr's.

    2) If you have one or more limpers in front who are very sticky, and call big very big bets with top pair or worse type hands. If you can iso these guys with a reasonable bet then do so, but often the table will call reasonable raises to play with these players or its just a loose table. In these cases limp behind hit a hand that beats top pair and shovel the money in.

    note both these concepts come from Ed Miller's earlier articles . Personally his reasoning for these limps makes much more sense to me then his fast food chain approach to simplify his poker.

    The second thing I do is not make huge preflop raises. In position my raises are generally not larger then pot size. If your getting muti callers guess what that means...they are playing a wide range. This is a good thing not a bad thing. It makes no sense to me to make huge pre flop raiser to force their ranges tight.

    The second reason I don't mind many callers is multi way pots are very easy to hand read in. Most players play very straight forward in these pots, and the ones the don't stick out like a sore thumb. The trick is not force ranges tight but to learn to play in multi-way pots.

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