Range advantage against unthinking players

BadFrog1BadFrog1 Red Chipper Posts: 136 ✭✭
@Christian Soto's (and most/all successful online and mid-high stakes live players's) postflop strategy is built on a foundation of understanding range advantage. I'm wondering how much this applies against typical 1-2 players and weaker 2-5 players.

It seems that in order for range advantage to be a consideration, your opponent has to be thinking about your range in a logical way. Many weak opponents won't even think about what you have, and those that do are not doing it correctly (nits will always put you on a monster, calling stations will always put you on a bluff, some people will always put you on AK).

So it seems the real key to these games is simply understanding your opponent's range. @Ed Miller's fairly straightforward hand reading method seems to be the most useful here: based on the board texture and villain type, estimate what % of their combos will fold to a flop cbet and for the hands that call, estimate what % of remaining combos will fold on various turn and river cards.

Am I missing something fundamental about what range advantage means and why it's important? Or is it correct that simple reading of your opponent's range is the most important thing at low stakes?

Comments

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    It doesn't matter if your opponent dont read hands/ranges because you did ;) Range Advantage doesn't need V to be a good hand/range reader.

    Let's say you only play clubs. Only clubs suited cards. If a flop of 2 or 3 clubs fall does your opponent need to be an excellent hand/ranges reader for you to know that you have advantage on those boards in terms of ranges?
  • BadFrog1BadFrog1 Red Chipper Posts: 136 ✭✭
    It doesn't matter if your opponent dont read hands/ranges because you did ;)

    Right, that's what I'm suggesting. Plain old hand reading is level 2 thinking: you've got a good understanding of their range and how to exploit it. But unless I'm mistaken, playing for range advantage is level 3 thinking, which only makes sense if they're thinking about your range.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Read just above i updated my post.

    Range Advantage tells you, given the range you assumed for your V, if you are ahead/close (50/50)/Behind in terms of ranges given specific boards.
  • BadFrog1BadFrog1 Red Chipper Posts: 136 ✭✭
    Let's say you only play clubs. Only clubs suited cards. If a flop of 2 or 3 clubs fall does your opponent need to be an excellent hand/ranges reader for you to know that you have advantage on those boards in terms of ranges?

    Of course not, but knowing that you have advantage isn't going to change your flop decision. The only relevant factors are your hand and their range. (and how they play the different parts of the range, and stack sizes, and position, and metagame, etc, etc... but your range does not matter)
  • BadFrog1BadFrog1 Red Chipper Posts: 136 ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Range Advantage tells you, given the range you assumed for your V, if you are ahead/close (50/50)/Behind in terms of ranges given specific boards.

    Why does it matter whether your range is ahead of theirs when you know whether your hand is ahead of their range? It would only be relevant if they know your range, in which case you can use that knowledge against them. (or if you know how they perceive your range and whether that perceived range has range advantage)
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,334 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Range advantage, a concept and a term, is a filter for hand reading that emphasizes the runout of the community cards. Conversely, betting frequency and continuance ranges, which you mention but do not name, are not handreading.

    All of these things exist at any level whether you use them or use them correctly or not and whether your opponents use them or not. They are words that describe filters for understanding and refining basic, universally applicable poker ideas.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    BadFrog1 wrote: »
    Range Advantage tells you, given the range you assumed for your V, if you are ahead/close (50/50)/Behind in terms of ranges given specific boards.

    Why does it matter whether your range is ahead of theirs when you know whether your hand is ahead of their range? It would only be relevant if they know your range, in which case you can use that knowledge against them. (or if you know how they perceive your range and whether that perceived range has range advantage)

    Because it tells you at how much frequencies your gonna bet, x/r, x/c etc. Than you can realize which play will be better vs. their ranges. You will know if you are balanced or not and when V is giving you action and your contemplating an option R/F/C you will know if V is actually exploiting you on the long run when you do that particular chosen action. That's why it matters.

    Using range advantage, you'll know that C-beting this Flop is good because overall, on the long run vs. that type of player you'll have advantage than you'll make money vs. him just C-beting those kind of boards. You'll also know when those type of flops will be good to 2nd barrel because of that, more often than not, turn's card will help you and not V. You get the idea.

    Like Persuadeo wrote, it's a filter for hand reading. A refined way of knowing if you are ahead/behind or overall, the play will be just break even.
  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 322 ✭✭✭
    What I think you want to hear is that range advantage doesn't apply in the same manner to an unthinking player. You can use range advantage as a justification to bluff into a smart player who knows your range is beating his and so on, but to a player who only sees his two cards the only advantage is in your mind.

    Use range advantage against the weaker players by understanding what their range is and that your hand (not range) is beating it. That's all the advantage you can have with regard to ranges here, which I guess is the same as hand reading.

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