Did I fail the OLC test?

morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 185 ✭✭
edited January 2017 in Live Poker Hands
15 minutes into sitting at a $1/$2 game. $500 high hand promotion just started. The table appears to be pretty nitted-up. Old lady coffee (Grandmother having to leave soon to pick her 2 grandchildren up, appears to be Hispanic in her late 60's) opens for $5 UTG. Her stack is $350. 3 callers. I 3-bet w/ :Ks :Kh to $30. My stack is $220. OLC quickly calls. All other players fold.

Flop comes :Ac :Ad :5d . OLC checks and I bet $40 into a $71 pot after the rake. OLC didn't hesitate and seemingly without thought min.-raise me.

When making the C-bet my thoughts were that she couldn't continue unless she had an ace and even then she would just call me. When she min-raised me I felt that I had two options. Move all-in or fold. I strongly felt that she had AK. Maybe even :Ad :Kd and if she had any AK then I was drawing dead. I chose to fold. She didn't show her hand so apparently she didn't have pocket aces :) for the high hand pool.

Was the math there for me to move all-in? (channeling Kagey for your great hand break-down analysis skills). I would have shoved $150 into a $151 pot. I felt that she would have called the $110 more.

This is my first HH post so I may be a little lacking....or a lot.

I got turned onto RCP a little over a year ago after catching some of Splitsuits' you tube videos. I watched every single one of them as soon as I possibly could. This site has had a tremendous impact on my game and I can't give enough credit to the community. I'd like to give a shout-out to Splitsuit. If it wasn't for you I would not be here. I absolutely value all of the input from Persuadeo, Doug Hull, Matt Berkey, Chin, Splitsuit, jeffnc, and Kagey.
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Comments

  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Question: if you think she only calls your bet with an Ace, what do you accomplish by betting the flop?
  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 185 ✭✭
    I bet for value and also to determine what premium hand that she had. I was not going to check and let her "actualize her equity".

    Had she just flatted I more than likely would have checked the turn depending on live reads and the board. If she hesitated in calling my flop bet I would have bet the turn looking to get it all in on the river. Unfortunately she quickly min-raised me.

    My math was wrong in the post. On flop, when I decided to fold or move all in. The pot was $191 and not $151. I would have shoved my remaining $150 into a $191 pot had I called all in. Also my position was the HJ.

    By the way Ninjah, I do value your input as well as the Pro's that I had mentioned. I knew that I would miss a few people...dammit :).
  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 185 ✭✭
    "called the all in" should be "had I moved all in".
  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 185 ✭✭
    Had she had an inferior hand, I bet so she didn't "actualize her equity".
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭✭
    I bet for value and also to determine what premium hand that she had. I was not going to check and let her "actualize her equity".

    Had she just flatted I more than likely would have checked the turn depending on live reads and the board. If she hesitated in calling my flop bet I would have bet the turn looking to get it all in on the river. Unfortunately she quickly min-raised me.

    My math was wrong in the post. On flop, when I decided to fold or move all in. The pot was $191 and not $151. I would have shoved my remaining $150 into a $191 pot had I called all in. Also my position was the HJ.

    By the way Ninjah, I do value your input as well as the Pro's that I had mentioned. I knew that I would miss a few people...dammit :).

    Thank you for the kind words. With the table how you described it and with this being a 3-bet pot, I don't think you can call your flop bet a value bet because I don't think that she calls that bet with worse hands very often. I wouldn't be afraid of the flush because with the :AD: out there it takes away many of the combos she could have. So it is likely that she either has a) a decent Ace or b) a pocket pair. If she has an Ace, she isn't folding. If she has a pocket pair, she's rarely improving. Therefore, I think a check works best in this spot. If you check the flop and bet the turn, it's possible that you get a little extra value from those pocket pairs. It sounds like you think your hand needs some protection and I just don't think it does.

    Also, if you were to shove, what worse hands call from this type of Villain?
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 579 ✭✭✭
    This woman is not a villain, she's a grandmother. She wanted to pull one last bluff before she hit the road!
  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 185 ✭✭
    If I shove, I don't think any worse hands would call unless they are a bad player.

    Judging by her chip stack size it appeared that she had won some before I had sat down at the Seniors' table. Max buy in is $300 and she had around $350. Usually I see this crowd not buying in for the maximum. But I wasn't there when she had sat down so I didn't know what amount she had started with. Therefor I made a judgment that she wasn't a terrible player based on her stack size. Although opening up a pot for $5 is not representative of a good player.

    So by taking your advice and checking the flop only to bet the turn what would I do if I get the same result, a no hesitation min-raise?

    Usually I find with the $1/$2 crowd that a check/min-raise is the nuts. Especially when dealing with people who drink coffee....excluding myself.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    @Yosh , that's one of the funnier comments I've read here in awhile :)
    opens for $5 UTG.

    lol, you gotta love these games
    Flop comes :Ac :Ad :5d

    ...... I strongly felt that she had AK. Maybe even :Ad :Kd

    Not possible :)
    When making the C-bet my thoughts were that she couldn't continue unless she had an ace and even then she would just call me. When she min-raised me I felt that I had two options. Move all-in or fold. I strongly felt that she had AK.

    Yeah, I agree with most of that, I just come to a different conclusion about my action. Actually I think she can have any ace that she happens to like (so for that reason I actually think AQ/AJ hands are much more likely than AK since you have KK).

    So I agree with @Ninjah basically. Poker hands are not cards, they're situations. You make money with some situations and not others. This is simply not a money making situation (at least not at 1/2). If she has QQ/JJ, you might get a little money out of her, but the best way of doing that is being passive, not scaring her. Maybe make her feel comfortable putting out a little feeler bet on the river after you check twice. If she checks 3 times then put out a little dangler on the river yourself.

    She's never folding any ace, that's for sure, so that's not an accomplishable feat. If she doesn't have an ace, she's way behind you and there's little incentive to bet to protect your equity. The only mildly troubling threat is a flush draw, but again, that's tough - this just isn't a money maker no matter how you look at it.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Ninjah wrote: »
    If she has a pocket pair, she's rarely improving. Therefore, I think a check works best in this spot. If you check the flop and bet the turn, it's possible that you get a little extra value from those pocket pairs.

    Here's my feeling on that... let's say hero has Ax (villain believes hero has AK because there are only 3 hands people raise with - AA, KK and the ubiquitous AK). The flop comes out, villain checks (with a pocket pair, let's say) and hero checks. This is normal because this is what everyone does when they flop a mind-numbing monstrosity such as 3 aces. They wait until the turn to spring their trap. Villain now checks the turn and hero warily, optimistically and predictably bets his 3 aces now. But villain is having none of that. She's seen these young whippersnappers try to pull that one over on her before. She tosses her cards in the air and they're carried into the muck on the puff of breath that accompanies "I know you have AK".

    Personally I wait until the river. I could be wrong.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I absolutely value all of the input from Persuadeo, Doug Hull, Matt Berkey, Chin, Splitsuit, jeffnc, and Kagey.

    I am small time and part time compared to those guys, but thank you. As to the sense of community and intelligent debate offered here, and benefit to my game, I very much agree.

  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Ninjah wrote: »
    If she has a pocket pair, she's rarely improving. Therefore, I think a check works best in this spot. If you check the flop and bet the turn, it's possible that you get a little extra value from those pocket pairs.

    Here's my feeling on that... let's say hero has Ax (villain believes hero has AK because there are only 3 hands people raise with - AA, KK and the ubiquitous AK). The flop comes out, villain checks (with a pocket pair, let's say) and hero checks. This is normal because this is what everyone does when they flop an unbelievable monstrosity such as 3 aces. They wait until the turn to spring their trap. Villain now checks the turn and hero warily, optimistically and predictably bets his 3 aces now. But villain is having none of that. She's seen these young whippersnappers try to pull that one over on her before. She tosses her cards in the air and they're carried into the muck on the puff of breath that accompanies "I know you have AK".

    Personally I wait until the river. I could be wrong.

    I think waiting until the river is fine. I only see one street of potential value here anyway against this player type. I suppose it would depend on what the turn brings. I'm probably more likely to bet a diamond turn to charge a possible four to a flush.
  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 185 ✭✭
    morel hunter wrote: »

    Flop comes :Ac :Ad :5d

    ...... I strongly felt that she had AK. Maybe even :Ad :Kd

    Not possible :)


    Yeah, I see that post play rookie after thought that I had made. :)






  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    I only see one street of potential value here anyway against this player type.

    Right, and I see that from the perspective of villain, i.e. she only can handle one street of "value" but she has no way of knowing if that's what you're thinking. So this is the type of situation where if it's allowed, as in some home games (and maybe some casinos?), you could say to her on the flop "put in $30 and run it out?" Then she knows how much she's in for. The problem is that the earlier street you bet, the more doubt she has about how many times you want to pump it in there. Related to the "hammer of future bets" as Ed Miller referred to it.

  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 579 ✭✭✭
    This hand dovetails nicely with @colldav's question about leverage and working through it might help explain what is happening in this hand.

    After making a relatively large reraise there is $71 in the pot and only $190 behind. Your $40 flop bet happened to be the exact size to apply maximum pressure to this little old lady. If she calls, the SPR on the turn equals exactly 1. You have bet only $40 but signaled $190. This is for all intents and purposes the end of the game and the leverage point. OLC should know that she can't raise and fold so if she's bluffing she should raise all-in and maximize fold equity.

    OK, so when (or with what hands) is it best to make a leveraged bet and signal all-in on the next street?
  • CarrieCarrie Red Chipper Posts: 71 ✭✭
    With my limited experience with coffee drinkers and nitty old guys playing high hands, I'm questioning if she would raise you since I'd expect her to want to get to the river to see if another A hit for the high hand if she had AK-AQ. I know I wouldn't be playing for the HH but I see a lot of people who do.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah sadly that's a good point @Carrie (what I mean is sometimes people make the most terrible decisions because of jackpots). However in this hand, it probably wouldn't count because most casinos require a pocket pair if you want to make quads. (Of course you can never know what people understand and don't understand, and therefore why they make their decisions). But she might think it's worth waiting for if she had AK, because aces full of kings could win the high hand.
  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 185 ✭✭
    As Jeff stated, that is a good point Carrie. The thought did cross my mind after the hand. You only have to use one card for the high hand promotion and it doesn't have to go to showdown. At the time the high hand has some inferior full house.

    To my dismay I may have gotten owned by an OLC. After this discussion and watching Coaching Anton session six, hand three...I wish I would have just shoved to the C/R on the flop. I probably should also reread the original OMC thread by Doug Hull. There are plenty of "gold nuggets" (chipxtractor) in that post. It just sux to lose a buy in within the first 15 minutes of sitting down.

    The day wasn't a total loss. After playing approximately 9 hours I came out 365 BB ahead. A very good start to a new year.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,756 -
    tFSbIqZ.jpg

    Here is Flop Falcon.

    The move that bothered me was the continuation bet on the flop. You were making a c-bet into what I will assume is a transparent player.

    Her range is shown above, your range is KK. If you look at the nine bar charts on this image, the one in the lower right represents your equity on 1000 different flops.
    All 1000 flops run have AA5 in them. This bar chart is a histogram. For each of the 1000 flops where you have 0-10% equity, the left most bar gets a little taller. For each of the 1000 flops where you have 10-20% equity, the next bar gets a little taller. All the way until you are at 90-100% on the far right.

    We see the red line that says you have 39% equity overall. This distribution of equity is the classic "Way ahead, way behind" distribution. If you are ahead, you have like 80-100% equity. Basically she needs a set on the turn or river. If you are behind, you have 0-20% equity and you need to hit a set on the turn or river.

    If you choose to protection bet here, you are getting 100% folds from worse hands, and 100% calls from better hands. This is not bad, but it is true. Looking at the bar charts, you are more likely to be betting into a made hand than a folding hand. (that is why the average is 39% instead of 60% or higher.

    Notice her range is very Ace heavy and pair heavy. All of this is premised on that, but slightly wider ranges have similar features. With your bet size of $40 into $71 and the fact that you are getting called by better about 60% of the time you are laying poor odds and buying up very little equity on the next card (about 10% of the 20% to the river)

    Could you buy up that 10% equity for a much tinier bet on the flop?

    What if you check? She is going to play very honest. If she fires out on the turn, you are looking at Trips at minimum from this player type. Further, I would argue that she is going to bet 100% of her Aces. When checked to on the turn, I suspect a bet of $10 buys up her equity, will rarely run into an ace. You might even get called by all the other pocket pairs in her range.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
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  • CarrieCarrie Red Chipper Posts: 71 ✭✭
    I will tell you that despite the HH promotion, and the fact that many of the older nitty guys would play to the Promotion and just call, my gut, based on her preflop play, feels like a big ace. FWIW I don't think you got bluffed off your hand. And congrats on the ultimate huge score - that's fantastic!
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yosh wrote: »
    OLC should know that she can't raise and fold so if she's bluffing she should raise all-in and maximize fold equity.

    This is no way is to be taken to disagree with you, but I was curious about what you thought - out of curiosity - if you were playing some unknown 1/2 player which would you be more likely to fold to - the check/minraise, or the check/shove?

  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    tFSbIqZ.jpg

    Here is Flop Falcon.

    The move that bothered me was the continuation bet on the flop. You were making a c-bet into what I will assume is a transparent player.

    Her range is shown above, your range is KK. If you look at the nine bar charts on this image, the one in the lower right represents your equity on 1000 different flops.
    All 1000 flops run have AA5 in them. This bar chart is a histogram. For each of the 1000 flops where you have 0-10% equity, the left most bar gets a little taller. For each of the 1000 flops where you have 10-20% equity, the next bar gets a little taller. All the way until you are at 90-100% on the far right.

    We see the red line that says you have 39% equity overall. This distribution of equity is the classic "Way ahead, way behind" distribution. If you are ahead, you have like 80-100% equity. Basically she needs a set on the turn or river. If you are behind, you have 0-20% equity and you need to hit a set on the turn or river.

    If you choose to protection bet here, you are getting 100% folds from worse hands, and 100% calls from better hands. This is not bad, but it is true. Looking at the bar charts, you are more likely to be betting into a made hand than a folding hand. (that is why the average is 39% instead of 60% or higher.

    Notice her range is very Ace heavy and pair heavy. All of this is premised on that, but slightly wider ranges have similar features. With your bet size of $40 into $71 and the fact that you are getting called by better about 60% of the time you are laying poor odds and buying up very little equity on the next card (about 10% of the 20% to the river)

    Could you buy up that 10% equity for a much tinier bet on the flop?

    What if you check? She is going to play very honest. If she fires out on the turn, you are looking at Trips at minimum from this player type. Further, I would argue that she is going to bet 100% of her Aces. When checked to on the turn, I suspect a bet of $10 buys up her equity, will rarely run into an ace. You might even get called by all the other pocket pairs in her range.

    I guess I'm just confused.
    Why you are choosing to give the opponent a range which includes hands like ATo and omitting hands like KQo or KJs?

    I guess I'm also confused with why the two suggestions are to either Check or Bet $10.
    What bluffs would you this with? Or what value would you do this with?
    It seems like you would only do this with hands like JJ-KK which leaves us actually being the ones playing honestly.

    I understand you think the opponent is going to play honestly and are choosing an exploitative line.
    However, you mention that if you check and the opponent bets Turn, that we are looking at Trips at the minimum. This is a pretty big assumption! If our opponent ever fires Turn with KQdd or QQ and we are folding KK that is a big mistake. We also induced this bet.

    I think we should be betting Flop often as we would do with all our hands on this Flop. We get value from all under pairs immediately (88-QQ) and it also protects all our bluffs like KQ.

    I don't think checking or betting $10 accomplishes either of those things unfortunately.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Good stuff Doug.

    However on the turn if we checked back the flop, I don't think we can just fold the turn - might be induced as @Christian Soto says. Even if she's "usually" ahead.

    You could try to solve this problem by betting the flop and if called checking back the turn. You can fold to a check/raise on the flop to her, but a donk lead would be gross. So I prefer checking the flop and calling the turn if I have to. YMMV.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    jeffnc wrote: »

    You could try to solve this problem by betting the flop and if called checking back the turn. You can fold to a check/raise on the flop to her, but a donk lead would be gross. So I prefer checking the flop and calling the turn if I have to. YMMV.

    If you are checking back the flop with hands like TT-KK, you are polarizing yourself immediately when you do choose to bet the flop.

    Your bluffs have much less protection under that scenario and it becomes much easier for opponents to Fold hands like 99 after a flop check back. It also becomes much easier for opponents to call with 99 on the Flop when you do choose to bet as you've removed good portions of hands they lose to from your range.

  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 185 ✭✭
    Man, I am so stoked to get a response from both Doug and Christian!!! I have a question for Christian and it can be a one word response. Should I have jammed it in or fold like I did? Or is it a 50/50 and there is no right answer? Had I jammed the villain would have had to put $110 more into a what would have been a $340 pot. I lost $70 in the hand as opposed to my starting stack of $220.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Against certain players you could definitely find the 3B on the Flop, especially with a hand like KQ no diamond maybe TT no diamond.

    Against an old lady like this, it would be unlikely that she CR Bluffs you to be honest, and if you think they are this hand is fine to call down.
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 579 ✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Yosh wrote: »
    OLC should know that she can't raise and fold so if she's bluffing she should raise all-in and maximize fold equity.

    This is no way is to be taken to disagree with you, but I was curious about what you thought - out of curiosity - if you were playing some unknown 1/2 player which would you be more likely to fold to - the check/minraise, or the check/shove?

    I would be more likely to fold to the all-in. Check min-raises lay a pretty good price.
  • WhichWhich Red Chipper Posts: 114 ✭✭
    edited January 2017
    @morel hunter

    wanted to ask

    1. what position you were in when you 3bet?
    2. Was the OLC $5 usual sizing for her? or for the table to open?
    3. Was there a reason you raised to $30, as opposed to slightly more? or less?
    4. What range do you think she is calling your 3bet with?
    5. has she raised often before this hand? What hands did she show up with? was she aggro post flop as the PFR?
    6. Has she faced a 3bet before, and how did she react?
    7. were players left to act after you likely to 4bet or call your bet?

    I think the first thing I noticed when reading this, was the info above that I might like to have to figure out "how to play this hand"

    thanks

    which
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 579 ✭✭✭
    OP keeps bringing up jamming over the check raise. This is the worst of all plays. You should fold or call.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Yosh wrote: »
    OP keeps bringing up jamming over the check raise. This is the worst of all plays. You should fold or call.

    He's onto to something though. Maybe the mechanics are incorrect in this instance (because of our exact hand and exact situation) but that can be fixed.
  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 185 ✭✭

    Which wrote: »
    @morel hunter

    wanted to ask

    1. what position you were in when you 3bet?
    2. Was the OLC $5 usual sizing for her? or for the table to open?
    3. Was there a reason you raised to $30, as opposed to slightly more? or less?
    4. What range do you think she is calling your 3bet with?
    5. has she raised often before this hand? What hands did she show up with? was she aggro post flop as the PFR?
    6. Has she faced a 3bet before, and how did she react?
    7. were players left to act after you likely to 4bet or call your bet?

    I think the first thing I noticed when reading this, was the info above that I might like to have to figure out "how to play this hand"

    thanks

    which

    I apologize for messing the format up when replying to posts.

    1. HJ (high jack) position, she was in the BB
    2. I was only at the table for maybe 15 minute max. and I really don't recall any PF bets at this senior's table. There may have been a $7 PF bet, like once.
    3. I definitely know that I should have raised PF to around $45 - $60 but with this group I was hoping for one caller which was achieved.
    4. her range = JJ, QQ, AA, AK, and maybe AQs.
    5. She had never raised PF before this hand. I had no info. on her.
    6. No, in the 15 minutes that I was there no one had 3 bet.
    7. Yes. A total of 4 other players after me to act. Including OLC.


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