Raised with RA

YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
edited January 2017 in Online Poker Hands
This hand dovetails with my bankroll post and thoughts about playing cautious and tentative, possibly under-rolled to implement my ideas of a complete strategy.

The villain in this hand is a winning regular at the stake and the few that run higher. He is tight and aggressive. I am new to the stake as of about 3 weeks ago. I am intimidated by this player.

It seems like a simple spot, but I was lost as to how to play it.

Poker Stars $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players

MP: $251.11
CO: $312.26
BTN: $69.42
SB: $338.92
BB: $301.51
Hero (UTG): $228.33

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is UTG with Aspade.gif Kspade.gif
Hero raises to $5, 4 folds, BB calls $3

Flop: ($11.00) Kclub.gif 5heart.gif Jheart.gif(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $7.83, BB raises to $28, Hero calls $20.17

Turn: ($67.00) 7spade.gif(2 players)
BB bets $48

Comments

  • sparkyAAsparkyAA Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    What were your thoughts on his range on the flop when he raises to $28? As played, the :7s does not hit any of his range, so if you were good on the flop, you are still good. Tough spot as it is going to be very thin equity with just TPTK.

    By flatting a pretty large reraise out of position, you put yourself in this predicament and really turn your hand face up. Would rather see a reraise either on the flop or a lead out on the turn.

    As played, this is a call simply because you made the decision your hand was ahead on the flop and the turn changed nothing
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    He can't lead Turn.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He can't lead Turn.

    I guess you better let him know in chat first!
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    He sent this emoji after betting turn

    ncfrooj042tm.png


  • sparkyAAsparkyAA Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    How is the turn a call?

    What is villain bluffing with here? Complete air? Unlikely. The flop raise should be draws and hands that beat you. Will villain shove river with all or most of his draws? If he shoves all of them (also unlikely) then you should call turn and call river.

    Hands that beat you KdJd, 55, JJ. That's 7 combos. If you give him all KJ there are 12 combos that beat you. Villain can have many more draws than made hands on the flop. What percentage of those draws will he raise?

    The turn should be a shove.

    If you call you will have a pot sized bet left behind. What do you do on a river A, Q, T, 9, heart?
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    What do you call preflop with and then check raise in this formation?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Rephrase: we don't know what he thinks of you, which likely will explain everthing.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    KdJd, 55, JJ, maybe KJo is 7-12 combos. From his preflop range of some Axs, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, 22-JJ or QQ there are many reasonable combos for villain to check-raise.

    My point is predicated on this: If we were good on the flop, what were we good against? Draws. We need to get it in on the turn against those hands rather than wait for the river.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    I think persuadeo hit a fair point, what is your image? It's very important specially when you say V is a really competent player.

    Did you made some plays that would suggest you're not comfortable at this stakes so far ?

    I think If V is competent he got a pretty good idea of your range and what he can make you fold if he feels that you're not comfortable.

    I would had that he definitely have some really strong draws(str8+FD) in his 2bet calling range form BB vs. UTG open.+2P
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    This is the first pot we played during the session. He hasn't seen me do anything to suggest that I am uncomfortable. Honestly, he probably doesn't think much of anything about me at the moment.

    @colldav this is a pretty good example of a leveraged bet in action on the turn. Unfortunately for me I didn't make it.

    I had 3 simple thoughts rattling around in my head. #1 this spot is probably underbluffed by most players. I raised UTG and bet/called on a board that I have range advantage on. #2 this player is probably better than me since he plays much higher than this and probably knows that I have AK. Does he know that I am thinking #1 too? #3 $200 is a lot of money to bluff catch with.

    2/3 of those thoughts were just squandering my already limited thought capacity. I was not able to go any deeper in my 30 seconds of allotted time.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Yosh wrote: »
    What do you call preflop with and then check raise in this formation?
    a LOT of suited hands...
    :AH::QH:, :KH::QH: , :KH::TH: , :AH::KH: , :KH::9H: , :QH::TH: , :AH::TH: , :AH::9H: , :TH::9H: , :QH::9H: .... etc.

    I think he probably doesn't have KK or JJ
    but KJs (1 combo) and 55 (3 combos) are likely

    PokerCrucher says you're like 40/60 against this range...
    (take out all KJos and you're 50/50)

    Guys who play at higher levels are successful because they're ferocious.
    They play with reckless abandonment because they know their %s.
    So even when behind, they know FE is in their favor.
    (Berkey would make this move...)

    I think from BB, V's range is much wider than yours.
    You're at the top of your range.
    I can't find a fold here.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    I dont play these stakes online (kudos for getting to this level even if its just shot taking) but i do know that when youre bluffcatching with the top of your range you did something wrong.

    If youre going to call his flop check raise (which is debatable imo) i think you must lead blank turns.

    What are you doing with sets here? Combo draws?
  • Matt BerkeyMatt Berkey Red Chipper, RCP Coach Posts: 278 ✭✭✭
    What am I missing? We're facing a ch/r, barrel on a rather dry board (according to made hands, draw heavy otherwise) where we are at the top of our range. We're about 1 spr after opponent bets turn... Seems like an easy shove, or just a call, call on non heart rivers (though I prefer the former as we can't predict how often he'll follow through w/busted river draws. In other words when he bets river, it could just be nuts).
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    I realized i typed lead blank turns (oops!) you must SHOVE blank turns, and the 7s is indeed a brick in this spot.

    correct me if im wrong @yosh you probably GII on the turn when you play 50 or 100 NL?
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    When he check raised me I was really confused and called because I didn't know what to do. This is supposed to be my board as the UTG raiser. He should be bluff catching. I wasn't sure if AK was a 3b and I couldn't fold so I called.

    If I have the range advantage but I decline to 3b on the flop he can start to assume that I am either weak or sometimes trapping right? Wouldn't I normally 3b KK,JJ,KJ,AA,AhKx and a decent chunk of strong heart and straight draws?

    Now I arrive on the turn with my range in pieces and AsKs as one of the best made hands I have left. Villain now has the range advantage and can continue down the road of balanced value betting and bluffing.

    I'm left guessing. Haven't I already lost?
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    I'm not so sure Yosh. With the stack size you can call the flop and shove the turn. If no heart comes you cut his draw outs in half on the turn.

    What I mean is this: If a heart comes on the turn you can fold to his bet. (You now lose to many of the hands he semi-bluffed on the flop.) If you get it in on the flop your equity is probably close to 50/50 over two streets. Getting it in on the turn allows you to do so with 75/25 equity vs his draw range.

    So, I'm not so sure your range is in pieces here.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    So, if we are at the top of our range here, and we continue because we are at the top of our range, isn't that sort of a GTO move? (I'm thinking of Doug Polk's analysis here -

    Is it exploitative to fold, assuming villain is underbluffing here?

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You're not lost, you just haven't created a plan for dealing with this common spot. That's why I ask about his view of you, which he has, no matter what you say, as it will change what he does.

    1) you can keep your flop line consistent and continue to bluff catch. There is merit in this for many reasons, and will keep your range intact, which something that clearly preoccupies you.

    2) you csn combat the x/r in other ways besides calling and introduce a 3b range. This is not for the faint of heart, however.

    3) the turn shove is big but not unreasonable.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    Yosh,

    Just because the flop gives you range advantage doesnt mean he should bluffcatch. Yes, he should be checking to you almost always, but cr helps protect his checks. His cr range should be small, but there are hands that just have no other choice but to cr (i.e big combo draws) regardless of who has range advantage.

    Once you just call his cr, im thinking this board shifts to range neutral and the turn will determine who has range advantage moving forward. Since you catch a clean turn, you certainly dont have range disadvantage.

    It will also depend on how well he protects his check call range. If you think he is cr all sets, 2p, and big draws, you are about even equity wise even with the blank turn (but still committed given pot size). If he does showdown a 2p hand, then you know moving forward his cc range is probably very weak and you can act accordingly on turns and rivers.

    at these stakes i would guess you will face a lot of situations like this. You admit to being confused. Sounds like you now have a nice topic for off table study: handling Flop CR on range advantage flops.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    2) you csn combat the x/r in other ways besides calling and introduce a 3b range. This is not for the faint of heart, however.

    The faint of heart would call the flop raise and fold to the turn lead...

  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    So, if we are at the top of our range here, and we continue because we are at the top of our range, isn't that sort of a GTO move? (I'm thinking of Doug Polk's analysis here
    damn, that guy is annoying....
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    @eugeniusjr I watched that video. I know Doug Polk is an awesome player but his explanation of "GTO" was a bit misleading IMO. You and he are right in the respect that if I fold AK on the turn and I would generally raise the flop with my strong hands then I am folding all hands in this spot since I don't have anything better than AK. Not a good place to be and sort of where I ended up, partially from not thinking it through and partially from dollar pressure. In a lower stakes game I might flat KK where here I would probably 3b.

    @persuadeo you're right that I didn't have a plan. It's not a common spot for me. I have played 13,059 hands UTG with 6 players. I have raised 2042 times. I have been check raised by the BB 25 times. 3/25 saw a high flop with range advantage. 3/3 I folded a bluff. In game was literally the first time I thought about this, which is why I probably couldn't come to a reasonable conclusion.

    @Wiki_Leaks if I shove into a range like this with a hand that rates to fall in the middle, air/draws fold and the nuts call. No? For example if I shove this turn I'm laying 2:1 and his heart and straight draws would fold.

    In this case is AsKs the top of my range? I have KK/JJ/KJs/AA sometimes KJo. AK with no heart and no backdoor is near the 30th percentile hand. It's closer to the middle than the top.

    Generally speaking when an opponent takes a highly polarizing action my default behavior is to bluff catch. My reasoning is that if they have the nuts or are drawing then I make more money by allowing them to barrel off. This obviously totally falls apart when villains are well balanced or as @Matt Berkey mentioned when the river bet is actually all nuts and I'm still calling some % or I just guess wrong in general. Maybe this idea is garbage. It certainly precludes me from rebluffing.
  • Matt BerkeyMatt Berkey Red Chipper, RCP Coach Posts: 278 ✭✭✭
    His poles include nearly no air, it's nuts or equity and you can't be sure when he lands at zero on river that he'll pile, but you can jam turn and charge his equity (esp bc nuts is like 12 combos). It prevents us from exploiting ourselves based upon presumptions in a scenario where opponent has a real decision (say he bets QThh on turn, it's a call off prove wise but not a comfortable one).
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    ^ capitalization of your equity share.

    Although if we think he is doing the same thing with all his 2p and completely decimating his check call range, its a pretty thin spot.
  • Matt BerkeyMatt Berkey Red Chipper, RCP Coach Posts: 278 ✭✭✭
    KJ are his only 2 pairs and we block. I think this is a spot where he's heavily weighted toward high equity hands. Just Kxhh and combo draws alone already outweigh the KJ combos.
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    Sadly, I folded this hand on the turn after being unable to see through the fog. Dollar pressure wins, this time. Thanks for everyone's input. I'll think on this one for a while.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    Not folding. Calling down. His range is hugely skewed towards FD and QT. He can only have 55 or KJ for made hands beating us (9 hands -- that's it). He's a winning reg at 200NL online -- hes aggressive by default and the average player at these stakes are TAG and likely lay down more hands on average than they call down with, so he probably expects to profit off a 2-3 barrel semibluff line more often than not, even without alot of history.

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