Getting Creative when I hit my Gutshot on the Turn. Questionable play? (NL10)

hellsdesirehellsdesire Red Chipper Posts: 22
Hi guys, so even though I won this hand, I took a pretty unconventional line of the turn given the amount of money left behind in both mine and villain's stack. While it turned out well, I wonder if this was actually a good play? It may have worked this time, but in most situations, is this truly the optimal play? I think I have misplayed it despite winning. More about this in the 'Thought Process' section at the end.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed)

saw flop | saw showdown

CO ($10.49)
Button ($9.68)
SB ($20.19)
BB ($10.52)
UTG ($5.21)
UTG+1 ($11.23) (11/4 over 97 hands with AF 2)
MP1 ($4.45)
MP2 ($10.56)
Hero (MP3) ($10)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7club.gif, 7spade.gif
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 raises $0.40, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.40, 2 folds, SB calls $0.35, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.40) 3club.gif, 4spade.gif, 5spade.gif(3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets $1.05, Hero calls $1.05, 1 fold

Turn: ($3.50) 6club.gif(2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $8.55 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $8.55

River: ($20.60) Qheart.gif(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $20.60
Main pot: $20.60 between UTG+1 and Hero, won by Hero

Results below:
UTG+1 had 8heart.gif, 8diamond.gif (one pair, eights).
Hero had 7club.gif, 7spade.gif (straight, seven high).
Outcome: Hero won $19.57

Thought Process: The UTG limps and UTG+1 opens to 4x the big blind. With pocket 7s, this is a standard call for me in the Hijack. SB calls and we go 3 way into the hand. Flop comes 3club.gif, 4spade.gif, 5spade.gif and the SB checks. UTG+1 decides to lead out here for $1.05. Him being an 11/4 plus raising the limper preflop and leading out here means his range consists of either overcards + flushdraw or overpairs to the board. The latter seems more likely. Or it could be just a standard CB. I don't think he will have sets here very often being 11/4 since he might just limp with small pocket pairs in my opinion.

Having an overpair + gutshot myself, this here is a standard call I believe. I call and the SB folds. The turn brings the 6club.gif and I hit my gutshot, always a great feeling. Villain decides to check to me. Now, here is where I start to switch things up a bit. Normally I would just put in a normal sized 60% - 70% bet here for value. After all, it is a dangerous board, 2 suited flush draws and a 4 card straight? Few hands will want to continue against my bet here. And I myself don't want flushes to get there cheaply.

With that in mind, I just decided to jam the rest of my stack $8.55 in. I am completely repping a straight now. I wasn't sure what I was thinking at the time. I honestly NEVER EVER play this way with a 7 in my hand. I suppose I wanted it to look like a bluff or semi-bluff? Villain tanked for a whole minute before deciding to call at the last second. He turns over pocket 8s, Queen comes on the river and I win the pot.

Question 1: Why did this play work? I have my own thoughts on this but I'd like to hear other point of views as well.

For me, I tried to think about it from Villain's point of view. Do note that my table image is TAG and I rarely bluff (though I'm experimenting with more bluffs these days). Anyway so maybe villain thought "well if he had a 7 in his hand, would he really so blatantly jam here? Since he is jamming here he may not have a 7 and may be trying to bluff me off the pot. But what else would he have? A flush draw trying to get me to fold? There are 2 flush draws on the board, so it is possible. I have a gutshot to the nuts anyway if he doesn't have it." Could that be possibly why he decided to call me?

Question 2: Is this the best way to play this hand? Would another line have been more optimal? I think that I can't always do this and I need to be able to make these kinds of moves with draws or bluffs to balance my range against regs at these stakes. I do think that unconventional plays like these have a place once in a while in order to confuse and outplay them. If I always did the same thing as all the other regs I would be just too easy to play against.

Any input on this hand would be greatly appreciated.

Comments

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    To answer your first question, no. I really don't like the play.
  • purdrewpurdrew Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    Why did the play work - villain must not have believed you had a 7, or wasn't paying attention to the 4-straight on the board.

    Is it the best play? Probably not. Many players will understand there are more 7's in your range than their own in this spot, and when you overbet shove on a low board with four to a straight - a board that hits your range very well, you are probably going to fold out just about everything including high overpairs and flush draws.

    You can bet $2.00 (or something) on the turn, which if called, sets up the river nicely for a shove that offers a decent price for villain to call with overpairs and any QX he may have spiked.
  • hellsdesirehellsdesire Red Chipper Posts: 22
    To answer your first question, no. I really don't like the play.
    What line would you take if you were in my shoes? Would like to hear your thoughts
    purdrew wrote: »
    Why did the play work - villain must not have believed you had a 7, or wasn't paying attention to the 4-straight on the board.

    Is it the best play? Probably not. Many players will understand there are more 7's in your range than their own in this spot, and when you overbet shove on a low board with four to a straight - a board that hits your range very well, you are probably going to fold out just about everything including high overpairs and flush draws.

    You can bet $2.00 (or something) on the turn, which if called, sets up the river nicely for a shove that offers a decent price for villain to call with overpairs and any QX he may have spiked.
    I suppose if I had some history with this player in which I was pushing him around, this might be a more reasonable play since he may call me down lighter. I think I was just lucky this time around that he thinks I was bluffing/semi-bluffing.

    Betting $2.00 would indeed give him a not-so-great of a price with 2.7 to 1 on a call if he's on a flush draw. On the other hand, what if a spade draw completes? Should I still bet out for value? Getting reshoved there would put me in a pretty tight spot. If the club draw completes I will not be as worried because it is a little less likely he has it (though not impossible).

    Let's talk about villain's point of view. If he was on a flush draw and it completes on the river, he will either bet out, donk shove or check raise all in. Either way with my hand it will be quite a tough call. If he was on an overpair to the board like in this scenario, would he call me down if I made a value bet when the flush completes or an overcard to his overpair came on the river? Now that I think of it, with such tricky rivers, maybe even going with a pot sized bet of $3.50 would not be so bad don't you think?
  • sneakyfrogsneakyfrog Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    part of the reason the play worked was that it looked like a bluff to a player whose PF open range is mostly pairs and over cards (nothing lower than T kicker). I find players like this at this level love over pairs to the board and will stock with them until the board brings an overcard.

    that being said the line is probably not long term optimal because most players will be able to get away from the small overpair on this board even though they picked up a gutshot. a value bet of about the potrip would be better because you could probably get a crying call on the river from his now second pair hand.
  • cxy123cxy123 Red Chipper Posts: 81 ✭✭
    V opened pre, bet flop, check-called a over pot shove on turn with the abs bottom of his range. That isnt going to happen a lot.
  • CallMePrimeCallMePrime Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    edited February 2017
    I don't know if villain is competent player or a fish but how do you guys feel about a raise on the flop?
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    The play is not logically sound in a vacuum because this board is all over your range while completely missing villains 4% preflop raising range. When your range advantage is this massive and you have so few bluffs, none of which are low equity, its tough to bet so large for value. IMO Its best to value overbet when you have a monster on a board where you would theoretically have a lot of bluffs and very little value.

    That being said the 11/4 at 10nl aint folding his overpair. four card straight be damned, hes gotta be on a flush draw! I dont think the play is terrible.
  • SliverOverlordSliverOverlord Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    purdrew wrote: »
    Many players will understand there are more 7's in your range than their own in this spot .
    @purdrew
    I disagree with this statement. A good tag in this spot I would only ever expect to have a 7 if he has exactly 77, especially at a full ring game. In 6max, it might be more standard to defend the button or maybe the CO with suited connectors/ 1gappers, but In this spot, Hero in the High Jack and not being very deep (I would consider 150+ being deep), The only 7s in either players range are 77.
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    That being said the 11/4 at 10nl aint folding his overpair. four card straight be damned, hes gotta be on a flush draw! I dont think the play is terrible.
    This is exactly why the play worked, and I agree with @Wiki_Leaks here, the play is far from terrible. I actually think an 11/4 (over decent sample) has a very inelastic part of his range here. 77+ and possibly AK will never fold here. The flushdraws, may also be in this range. The other random junk is always folding. A lot of players at these stakes (myself included on some occasions) don't take into account the bet sizing, and just see huge dollar signs whenever they have an overpair. In a sense, by jamming here, you were able to get the max value from the range of 88-JJ that may have folded once the Q drops on the river. I don't think this play is ideal, but I think there are definitely some aspects that are good.

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