using the rule of 12 to count combos revisited....

EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
A while ago I made a post about how I use the number 12 to do flopzilla in my head. But I explained it badly....so I gong to try again...



First the Number 12 fits groups of combos when counting combos.
Pre flop....

Unsuited hand is 12 combos....or a 1..... thats AKo Kjo 78o type thing...

Suited hands.....are 4 combos or 1/3....that is a group of 3 of these is 12 combos or a 1
........AKs AQs and AJs in a range is a 1....(3 * 4 = 12) (I try to group this when thinking about a range)

And Pairs are a 1/2.....(6 combos)

So a range of JJ+ AQo+ and Ajs + and KQs Kjs QJs
2 for the pairs
2 for unsuited
and 2 for the suited...

Total is 6.....
.how much is AA KK 1 out of 6
If they call a 3 bet with QQ+ and AK how often do they call a 3 bet
QQ+ is 1 and 1/2....AK is 1 1/3 (AKo =1, and AKs =1/3) that about 3
they will call about 1/2 the time.....

..............................................................................................................................................
Post flop........the rule of 12 works great....its basics are..

If the range has a suited and unsuited cards say KQo and KQs
and on of it is on the flop say a K85 or Q 82.....that combo KQo and KQs...will hit the K for 12 combos or a 1.....

Unsuited combos that don't pair are still 12.... on a QJ6 board....AK (inside staright over cards) is a 1 and

Suited combos that don't pair AKs on the QJ6 is 4 or 1/3.....thus AKo and AKs is 1 and 1/4.

If they only play suited combos....same board Q82...but only play 86s (not 86o)....thats 3 combos or 1/4

suited combos that don't pair are sitll 4 combos or 1/3....
thus on a K67 board....if they and 98s....

Sets....are 3 comobs or 1/4.......

pairs JJ on a K t 5 board is still 1/2...


....................................................................................................................................................................................

Part 2 of this model...for simple aggression...that is I raise pre flop get called....and then want to cbet and barrel

Here I make a base range, (I don't care if no one plays this, once I know how this range works I can adjust up and down very easily)

My range....is
All Broadway....
All pair minus AA and KK as they 3 bet...
All suited Aces....
All suited connectors
and All suited one gappers.....

This range in terms of my 12 count. is..

All unsuited Broadway.....10 unsuited hands and thus a 10 (groups of 12 combo)
all unsuited Broadway......10 4 combos each....that about a 3 (actually 3 1/3 but I round)
All pairs less AA KK....that 11 pairs or 5 1/2 (round to 5)
All suited connectors not broadway....that is 23s-t9s...is 8 combos or a bit less then 3 (8* 4 32 combos )
All suited 1 gappers.....that also a bit less the 3
All suited Aces.......that also a bit less then 3...

So that roughjly ....
10 + 3 + 5 +3 +3 +3 = 27.........(if you count combos its 318 or 26.5 )

If you want to convert it to a 1% of all hands is 13.26 witch is 10% more then are 12 combos....so just reduce it by about 10%....or 27- 2.7 = about 24% and flopzilla...has this range at 24%

.......................................................................................................................................................................
So now we can see how this works on a flop....

say we have :Ks :7s :6c

so how many top pair hands....
Well all broadway......has AK KQ Kj and KT......each of these is 1 group of 12 or a 1....

So that a 4.... (rule any broadway card will produce a 4)
Now 2 pair and sets.... 77 66 (1/2)....76s (1/3 if the 76 had been :7s :6s it would be 1/4)
so 2 Pair + is about 1...and top pair + is about 5....


Bluff catchers...2nd pair type thing....
Pairs between king and 7..... 88 99 tt jj QQ or 2 1/2 (each are 6 combos)
2nd pair.... A7s 78s 79s 75s (76s was 2 pair)...each are 1/4 so thats a 1....(rule 2nd pair non broadway is a 1 )
So thats 3 1/2...can round to 3....(maybe they don't call 79s and 75s)
Bluff catchers a 3....

Draws...
Flush draws....(rule against this range they are about 2....take 1/2 off if an A is on board and take a 1/2 off if you have one of the flush cards in your hand..).....
So that is a 2...

Straight draws......with connectors on the flop :7s :6c ...its also a 2.....8 combos of OESD 98s 45s....and 16 combos of t8s t9s, 653s and 43s....for 24 or a 2

So draws are....4


So now we now they call with....
5 for top pair +
3 for bluff catchers. +
4 for draws....

So that a 12.... (against this range multiply by 4 to get the % they call )

So thats 48% of the time.....(flopzilla has it at 48.8%)

And we know that ...7 out of 12 will not be able to continue on the turn if a blank hits to a pot size bet...type thing...

and if the turn is say :2s flush draws become 1 1/2 (:2s blocks about 6 combos)....top apirs is still 5....now they continue with 6 1/2 out of and fold 5 (bluff catchers 3, straight draws 2)....

............................................................................................................................
Another hand....... :Ah :Td :8d

Top pair....Broadway are 4 for the A...and Suited Aces is 2 so that a 6 (but AT is 2 pair so we move it there just its a 5)
2pair +.....1/2 for sets....2 pair...is about 1 1/2 (AT, A8s, T8s).so that about a 2...
2 pair + is 7 ish....

bluff catchers......
pairs are QQ JJ....for 1
2nd pair is 3 (broadway...KT QT JT....and a bit more T9s so that 3 1/4 call it 3...

So bluff catchers are 4.....

Draws...
Flush draws....are 2 (if the ace had been part of the draw, it would be 1 1/2)
Straight draws...well around a one gapper...its 8 combos for OESD and 8 combos for inside draws....(I round that to 1)....

But anytime a draw hits around broadway cards one adds 1 for each broadway that unsuited...and 1 for ever 3 broadways suited....

Here we have around the t8s....a 1 1/4 (j9s, j7s QJs, 67s) but QJ is Broadway so thats another 1 for QJo.....and around the the AT we have KQ KJ for 2 1/2.....so thats about a 5....(1 ish OESD and 4 inside...

So draws are....7....


Now we get...
Top pair + 7
bluff cathers 4
draws....7

Thats 18.... multiply by 4 that 72%.... Flopzilla has it at 73.1%.....

Note also bluff catchers and draws....make up 11 to 7 top pair....if you bet this flop plan on barrelling....

......................................................................................

Its very easy to add larger ranges and subtract other tighter ranges from this.....

If you think they are looser and play Kxs add 2 to top apir if its a K, and 1/2 to flush draws
I
f you think they play t9o 98o and 87o.....then add one for each of these to stright draws and 1 to 2nd pair that hits these thus on a K76.....2nd pair is now 2 instead of 1, and stright draws go for 2 to 4 ......

If they play tighter...not suited gappers...and only some siuted connectors...flush draws might go to 1 instead of 2...if they don't play broadway tens....then top pair broadway goes from 4 to 3.....

with a bit of practice I think you will find this system for counting combos....amazingly easy....
I hope I explained it a bit better this time.







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Comments

  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    i kinda get it. i just started studying this whole combo thing so looking for ways to make it easier in real time. Where I confused
    First the Number 12 fits groups of combos when counting combos.
    Pre flop....

    Unsuited hand is 12 combos....or a 1..... thats AKo Kjo 78o type thing...

    Suited hands.....are 4 combos or 1/3....that is a group of 3 of these is 12 combos or a 1
    i am not sure I understand this but have read it several time and it seems like i am getting lost here
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    mbehr1983 wrote: »
    i kinda get it. i just started studying this whole combo thing so looking for ways to make it easier in real time. Where I confused
    First the Number 12 fits groups of combos when counting combos.
    Pre flop....

    Unsuited hand is 12 combos....or a 1..... thats AKo Kjo 78o type thing...

    Suited hands.....are 4 combos or 1/3....that is a group of 3 of these is 12 combos or a 1
    i am not sure I understand this but have read it several time and it seems like i am getting lost here


    AKs and AKo is 16 combos.....that is 4 Aces time 4 kings for 16 but AKs is 4 so AKo is 12......I break it down this way preflop because I want the number 12 to make things easy...... It also helps if some one might limp AJo but raise AJs.....

    As far as grouping....since suited hands are 4 combos... that is 1/3 of 12 (my magic number). Thus when I think preflop I like to group suited hands in groups of 3 6 or 9 12......

    some one plays all suited Aces.....thats 12.....that would be a 4 (48 combos /12) ....
    If they also played all broadway aces unsuited....that would be 4 (AKo AQo AJo and ATo) each unsuited is 1 and you have 4.....so the total number of Aces in the range would be 8 ....(that 8 groups of 12 or 96 combos.)...

    I hope that helps....




  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    I get it I think
  • BustDaNutsBustDaNuts Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    Thanks a lot for making this revisited thread! It is very clear now, especially with those shortcuts. The only thing I need to dive a bit deeper into is the last part, but that probably has more to do with my understanding of the system then your explanation :-)

    It's quite unique btw that you were able to create this system and are willing to share this. There is a lot of software available, but you've managed to created something to do these calculations by head. It takes some effort to learn and apply this system, but personally I find this one of the most impressive things I've seen so far and once learned it will pay off lifetime.

    I definitely go further with studying this system.
  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    I kinda get the system but I am still getting confused
    Unsuited hand is 12 combos....or a 1..... thats AKo Kjo 78o type thing...

    Suited hands.....are 4 combos or 1/3....that is a group of 3 of these is 12 combos or a 1
    what does the 1 mean? Is it 1X12 for 12 combos? sorry for the questions I would like to understand this as I would like to try and implement it in my game

    @BustDaNuts can you explain it in your words as I might be missing something from Eazzy
  • BustDaNutsBustDaNuts Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    The 1 indeed means that there are 12 combo's of for example a hand like AK.

    A pre-flop shortcut is (without seeing a flop):

    Pocket pair (6 combo's), so 1/2
    Unsuited cards like AKo, JTo etc (12 combo's), so 1
    Suited cards like AKs, JTs etc (4 combo's), so 1/3

    A post-flop shortcut when one of the cards is on the flop:

    Pocket pairs, so possibility of a set 6's with pocket pair 6 (3 combo's), so 1/4
    Unsuited cards like AKo with a A on the flop (9 combo's), so 3/4
    Suited cards like JTs with a J on the board (3 combo's), so 1/4

    Let's say there is a A on the flop and you assume villain will play AKo and AKs then it's easy to remember that these count for 1, since 9 combo's (unsuited)+3 combo's (suited) = 12
    Suited hands.....are 4 combos or 1/3....that is a group of 3 of these is 12 combos or a 1
    ........AKs AQs and AJs in a range is a 1....(3 * 4 = 12) (I try to group this when thinking about a range)

    I assume he means with this to make it easier. If you know that one suited hand consist out of 4 combo's, then you have exactly 12 combo's (=1) if you group together 3 suited hands, like he mentioned with AKs, AQs and AJs.

    There are more handy shortcuts that he explained. Will later on write about these too. Basically the best advice I can give is read, re-read and read again this thread and use Flopzilla to see what he means with the numbers.
  • Blake Van NessBlake Van Ness Red Chipper Posts: 54 ✭✭
    I thought unsuited hands had 16 combos? 4x4 ?
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 662 ✭✭✭
    I thought unsuited hands had 16 combos? 4x4 ?

    No, something like AK has 16 combos but 4 are suited and 12 are off suit.
  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    @BustDaNuts thanks it is making more sense now
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭✭
    What are the upside of calculating it this way vs. with the real numbers of combos ?
  • mbehr1983mbehr1983 Red Chipper Posts: 635 ✭✭✭
    i think by using 12 it makes it easier to do live. I know for me 12 is easier for math than 16. In his previous post its pretty close enough to make logical decisions


  • BustDaNutsBustDaNuts Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    What are the upside of calculating it this way vs. with the real numbers of combos ?

    Eazzy will surely can explain this better since he developed this, but I'm going to give it a try anyway.

    The most simple answer: Because this system is way easier :-)

    First of all this al leads to being able to do Flopzilla in your head. Let's say you have counted that the continuation range from villain exist out of 10 groups (12 combo's per group) then villain's continuation range is 10 x 4 (the multiplier) = 40%. You will have 60% fold equity in that case.

    That ain't all, because he explained a very simple way to make a distinction between group of top pair+, bluffcatchers and draws. Not only can you calculate the CR range and FE very quick, but you also have an idea of what kind of hands this CR range exist. This is really important when it comes to C-betting light, value betting and of course bet sizing.

    I'm really terrible with math, so why 12 is only something I can guess. When you use a 25% calling range then you can use the easy multiplier "4". I did experiment myself with a 12.5% calling range and then I should work with groups of 6 to be able to use the multiplier "4".

    What I also noticed is that the number 12 is very easy with a lot of calculations. Pre-flop it's very easy as I wrote in my previous post to quickly count the number of groups and this is also the case post-flop.

    Besides that Eazzy gives a lot of shortcuts which makes it even more easy to do these calculations. However, I just started with trying out these things, so can't give a summary yet about these.

    In short this system takes some time to practice, but if I can estimate this correctly: when learned you will have a very easy live. My goals is to learn this system by head and use shortcuts that I instantly know my fold equity on different flops and also how villain's CR will looks like.

    Unless I see this wrong, but I think Eazzy created something which is quit revolutionary when it comes to poker.


  • Blake Van NessBlake Van Ness Red Chipper Posts: 54 ✭✭
    Skors3 wrote: »
    I thought unsuited hands had 16 combos? 4x4 ?

    No, something like AK has 16 combos but 4 are suited and 12 are off suit.
    Skors3 wrote: »
    I thought unsuited hands had 16 combos? 4x4 ?

    No, something like AK has 16 combos but 4 are suited and 12 are off suit.

    Got yathanks!!

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    BustDaNuts wrote: »
    What are the upside of calculating it this way vs. with the real numbers of combos ?

    Eazzy will surely can explain this better since he developed this, but I'm going to give it a try anyway.

    The most simple answer: Because this system is way easier :-)

    First of all this al leads to being able to do Flopzilla in your head. Let's say you have counted that the continuation range from villain exist out of 10 groups (12 combo's per group) then villain's continuation range is 10 x 4 (the multiplier) = 40%. You will have 60% fold equity in that case.

    That ain't all, because he explained a very simple way to make a distinction between group of top pair+, bluffcatchers and draws. Not only can you calculate the CR range and FE very quick, but you also have an idea of what kind of hands this CR range exist. This is really important when it comes to C-betting light, value betting and of course bet sizing.

    I'm really terrible with math, so why 12 is only something I can guess. When you use a 25% calling range then you can use the easy multiplier "4". I did experiment myself with a 12.5% calling range and then I should work with groups of 6 to be able to use the multiplier "4".

    What I also noticed is that the number 12 is very easy with a lot of calculations. Pre-flop it's very easy as I wrote in my previous post to quickly count the number of groups and this is also the case post-flop.

    Besides that Eazzy gives a lot of shortcuts which makes it even more easy to do these calculations. However, I just started with trying out these things, so can't give a summary yet about these.

    In short this system takes some time to practice, but if I can estimate this correctly: when learned you will have a very easy live. My goals is to learn this system by head and use shortcuts that I instantly know my fold equity on different flops and also how villain's CR will looks like.

    Unless I see this wrong, but I think Eazzy created something which is quit revolutionary when it comes to poker.


    12 is the number of combos of unsuited hands for a specific pairing, AK for example, he didnt pull that from his hat.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    So from what i understand it's the same principle as fraction reducing where 64/128 is the same as 1/2 which is handy to do when you are calculating multiple fractions, since we work with lower numbers and numbers we have calculate zillion times in our life so far so we are used to them and can calculate them quicker ?

  • BustDaNutsBustDaNuts Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    12 is the number of combos of unsuited hands for a specific pairing, AK for example, he didnt pull that from his hat.

    Maybe you should read my previous post again, because that conclusion certainly isn't the highlight of his system :-)
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Well maybe i miss something but if i put V on AK+TT+ it's 40 combos which is easy to do since PP is 6 so 6x4=24 and a combination of AK(or any 2) is 16. So 16+24=40.

    If he continue with JJ+ than its 24 out of 40 which is 60%. 20=50% of 40 and 4(20+4=24 combos) is 10% of 40 so 50%+10%=60%

    How the other system is better to show me that ?
  • BustDaNutsBustDaNuts Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    It's hard for me to say. If you can calculate all these combo's and the different parts of villain's continuation range very quickly, also with wider ranges, then I wouldn't know the added value. It means you already can do those Flopzilla calculations by head while playing. Respect btw.

    Personally, I can't, far from and his system makes it for me way easier to learn this. Again, it is quite some work to get used to this system, but there are so many shortcuts that at some point it should be doable to do these calculations very quickly.

    But to be honest, it's up to you or anyone else if you want to study his system or not. I'm not advocating you should. For me personally it just meant a huge breakthrough.

    There is one thing I'd like to add: I don't think you should judge this system based on my opinion btw, since Eazzy could probably explain way better what the advantages are of his system. Besides that I think it is also needed to really dive into all the examples he gave to get a better idea of what this system actually offers.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm not judging anything I was just asking. Basically i understand that this system seems to let us deal with much smaller numbers so calculations are easier to do quickly. But is there more than that, that will give me more infos when calculating? That is why I was asking really.
  • BustDaNutsBustDaNuts Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    No problem, but I really would study the examples he described in his first post to find out yourself. Probably you will see even more advantages then I can see.

    Since I only studied the situation when I raised first in and got called I can only tell my expierence so far:
    • Easy calculations due to smaller numbers
    • Quick assesment of fold equity +-2% of Flopzilla calculations
    • Quick assesment of the different parts of villain's continuation range; top pair +, bluffcatchers and draws (if you want also floats)
    Besides that (but I have to study this further) I think this system offers the possibility to quickly recognise standard situations due to some handy shortcuts.

    However, this is mainly Flopzilla by head (with practice I have read in 30 sec) and I think that's quite remarkable.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    What are the upside of calculating it this way vs. with the real numbers of combos ?
    mbehr1983 wrote: »
    i think by using 12 it makes it easier to do live. I know for me 12 is easier for math than 16. In his previous post its pretty close enough to make logical decisions

    I thought I would explain how/why I developed the system and what advantages it had for me.

    First, I rarely do it live. Mostly live, I do it when I not in a hand, to practice. Or after playing a hand, I do it to kind of review a hand I just played (not a good thing to do, but eh, I play live poker and it can be a little slow).

    Most boards I've seen so many times that the play is now instinctive...

    The system was developed so that I could review a lot of hands quickly at home, to get to this point.

    I had a really hard time getting a feel for hand reading. I found counting combos to be tedious. I have bad hand writing, and though good at math I'm bad at arithmetic, often making silly mistakes.

    Sol I would plan on spending an hour or so going over hands...counting combos. I practically did this counting them on my fingers. At that time it would go somelthing like ......it's an K high board.....He plays AK....so 4 aces and 3 kings thats 12, He plays KQ that 4 Q and 3 k thats another 12....does he play KJ...probalby so that lets me see 3 kings and 4 jacks thats anthogher 12....so that 12 * 3 that 36 combos...does he play KTs..thas Kts Kth Ktd and Ktc...no the K of clubs is onthe board.l..so that just 3. so that 36 + 3 that 39....type thing.

    It was very tedious repetitive. ...boring....so I would go to flozilla...and see the numbers and write them down...add them up...and get no feel for what the hands were.

    And after 30 minutes of this I would get fustrated and go play a computer game.

    The first time I worked though Ed's hand reading book, which is where the ration....idea I use here come from (sort of)....it was again tedious...he would give me the range and pose the questions...and I would try to count the different parts on my fingers...write them down, miss parts....add it wrong and get the answer wrong...or again go to flopzilla and see the answer, but get no feel for it.

    Owen Gainses Math that matters...gave me my first hope as he suggest you could use %.....1% of hands is 13.26 combos...so a pair is about 1/2....AK preflop 16 is about 1, AK hitting a K is 12 thats about 1...type thing. This helped me a lot...but it was a bit of an oversimplification (I started groupoing into 3% since that's very close to 40 combos.)

    Then I noticed that just because I had 10 fingers I did not need to count in a function of 10, 12 just fit everyting so well.

    Then I relized it was best to start with one range...not worry about weather someone play 32s or not....so my base range developed. From here I would drill off my base range for 1/2 and hour ever day (flopzilla allows you to enter a range, and then randomly genate flops).

    This led me to realise that rules could be developed.....I had been (embarrassingly) been count a K high lfop...so all broadway that 1 for ak 1 for kq 1 for kj 1 for Kt...that 4.......and realized its always 4...type thing.

    I also used the system against an oppeners range.....and against a limp caller (hint thats the base range, - the openers range).

    And I got good at adjusting the ranges for other ranges....by thinking whats different if a tight player calls or a loose player. I just touched on this at the end of this post, but the post was getting to long so I had to cut it short)

    This now allows me to think of hands and work out strategies while I'm doing things like walking down the street, weighting for a bus, pacing up and down (I do that a lot when I think).

    All of a sudden when I watch a video these ratios pot into my head, and I can understand what the coach is saying without, stopping the video, and entering ranges into flopzilla....

    The point is the increased speed allows me to study better, and much more effectively, while getting a feel for whats going on (something I tend to loose if I just go to a program.)

    This approach changed my poker life...but it is because it fits the way I think....and it makes studying poker a lot more fun.
  • BustDaNutsBustDaNuts Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    And I got good at adjusting the ranges for other ranges....by thinking whats different if a tight player calls or a loose player. I just touched on this at the end of this post, but the post was getting to long so I had to cut it short)

    Could you write another post about this subject? Would be really appreciated!
  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    Well maybe i miss something but if i put V on AK+TT+ it's 40 combos which is easy to do since PP is 6 so 6x4=24 and a combination of AK(or any 2) is 16. So 16+24=40.

    If he continue with JJ+ than its 24 out of 40 which is 60%. 20=50% of 40 and 4(20+4=24 combos) is 10% of 40 so 50%+10%=60%

    How the other system is better to show me that ?

    That is wrong. You forgot AA (another 6 combos). Total is 46 combos (AK 16cmbs + AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT 30cmbs)
  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    Eazzy wrote: »
    Owen Gainses Math that matters...gave me my first hope as he suggest you could use %.....1% of hands is 13.26 combos...so a pair is about 1/2....AK preflop 16 is about 1, AK hitting a K is 12 thats about 1...type thing. This helped me a lot...but it was a bit of an oversimplification (I started groupoing into 3% since that's very close to 40 combos.)

    Hi. I am really curious about the system. But I must confess, it is very hard to work it out from your posts :). At least for a novice like me. Maybe it's the punctuation or the way it's organised — it is just confusing for me. Sorry for being blunt :).

    Now, let's find some common ground to start with.

    You mentioned the book by Owen Gaines. That is actually what set me on to find out more about combos. He explains it beautifully in his book. However, it still requires a fair bit of math. He says it must be practiced off the table, and also offers several methods how to calculate it. This is the reason I actually went on to the forum to get tips how to practice efficiently. Also I needed advise on how to deal with a huge range (like 80% VPIP), as my live games are just full of an absolute total fish. They just play anything suited (all of it) even of suit gappers now and then. Try to work out Range on that!!! :). That's why I was looking tips to start small and get better. This just might be it.

    Okay, so let's try to reconcile what I understand.

    Total combos: 1,326 ((52x51)/2)
    Unpaired hole cards: 16 combos (Suited 4, Unsuited 12)
    Pocket pairs: 6 combos

    Total suited combos remaining when 2 of suit revealed (on the Flop for example) is 45.

    Card removal:
    Pocket pairs; if 1 card revealed combos reduced to 3 ((3x2)/2)

    Unpaired off-suit: if one card is revealed (A for example) then the remaining 3 are multiples with remaining 4. Result 12 combos.

    Suited: one card revealed removed entire combo.

    Right, we could say that we mostly be dealing with numbers like 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 16 and additions thereof.

    In Owens book, he suggests working out combos against us (crushing us) and against them (our best equity), and 3rd category if there are combos that make a tie. Next step is to average all of that out.

    Let's say Against 6 combos we have 25%, and against 18 combos we have 50% equity. One of the multiple approaches he suggest would be to determine what is (fraction) 6 out 18. Which is 1/4. So then we need to find out what is 3/4 between 25 and 50. I like to look at the difference between them, which is 25. Get 4 rough parts, 6. Multiply by 3, 18. And add that to 25. Result 43% equity.

    Big thanks to Owen for sharing this and helping out. However, it is still demanding and time taking math process. I cant imagine doing this against a fish range that I mentioned above. I don't think it's possible :). So I would love to try your method, but I don't quite understand the instructions :\.

    You mentioned that 1% of the entire (100%) range is significant, 13.26. I guess it is for, let's say, if someone has a range of 80% I can multiply it by the number of 13. 80x13=1040. So 80% VPIP fish has 1040 combos in their arsenal. I am not sure how to utilise this information.

    What I understand is that you want to reduce or get close to 12. Even that 13.26 can be swapped for 12. But on 80% VPIP I'd be missing 80 combos.

    Anyway, so within your system we attempt to see everything in chunks of 12. For example, AK (AKo 12, AKs 4) we see as 1 and third, 1-1/3.

    Or pocket pair as 1/2 (one half).

    What I don't understand is what to do next with that.

    Thanks.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 662 ✭✭
    Just as an aside: Why does everyone here seem to use Flopzilla? I have it, but I find Power Equilab to be far and away the better software. What am I missing?
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    @daithi

    How I look at hand reading, is a bit separate then looking at equity. How to calculate what equity you have when you need it is not what I'm trying to answer here (thats a different part of the poker puzzle). It can be important (well dah) but its not really the first question I'm looking at. Though by answering the first part, the second part will later become easier to answer.



    What I'm trying to answer here is if I raised preflop, and got called

    1)If I missed will my bet fold out enough to make it profitable (for one or two possibly 3 barrels)

    2)if I hit the flop...will value bets (of different sizes) get called enough by hands (combos) I beat then by hands combos that beat me.

    I think of it as a set of scales. If I'm bluffing, what hands (combos ) miss so that they fold, on one side of the scale...and on the other is what hands in their range hit,

    If i'm value betting i'm thinking, if I bet what hands call me that I'm ahead of on one side and what bets call me I'm behind.

    To start to answer this question I break their preflop range into 4 broad categories (by combos)

    1)Hands that hit top pair plus
    2) Bluff catchers (2nd pair ,pairs between top card and second pair, )
    3) draws (oed and gutshot straight draws, flush draws)
    4) air.



    If I'm bluffing on the flop...the two sides of the scale are
    what they call with is top pair +, bluff catchers, draws
    The other side is air

    If i'm value betting the sides of the scale are (this depends on how strong my hand is) say I have KK on an A high board
    top pair + (I loose to) ..............................bluff catchers draws (I'm beating).

    By the turn, some hands will move from one side of the scales to the other, same on the river......

    Moreover some parts of a range change...by the turn (depending on how loose or tight an opponent is) if I'm bluffing bluff catchers and many draws will move from the I'm calling side to the i"m folding side. Thus if I know the ratios on the flop are mostly draws and bluff catchers, I may want to double barrel.

    Sure the scales don't actually balance..if I'm bluffing I have some equity it shifts the scales, and if I'm betting 1/2 pot I don't need them to fold 50% I need them to fold 25%, but knowing the 50% is very helpful. In fact for most of my flop c-betting I pretty much just use the 50%, ( this gives me a nice profit margin even if I'm a bit off)

    This really is the first step...get good at this step and the rest will make a lot more sense to you.

    This is all my 12 counting system was designed to do...I tend to do this in very broad strokes, because I don't really know what range a players playing preflop, and I don't know exactly what part of the range they will call or fold to my bet. All I can do is get a better feel for it.

    It also makes looking at equity, much easier if you know how the ratio of parts of the range.

    Your second problem having trouble with very wide ranges, I would suggest starting with my base range (or pick another one for yourself)....then add to it in parts...understanding base range, and working with it you will begin to see patterns....

    No matter how much wider their range is your base range always hits flops the same...All brodaway all ways hits a K on the flop with 48 combos (4 12s) even if they play K7o-k9o and all suited KIngs ...the broadway part hit 4 12s....sure k7-k9 (suited and unsuited) hits 3 more...and the suited k2s-k6s hits about 2 more if you get the broadway hits 4 part, your on your way to quickly calculating that this wider range hits a King with a 9 (or 108 ish combos)

    For example I have the suited hands being on suited broadway...all suited aces...all suited connectors and all suited one gappers.....

    This range hits about a 2 (in terms of 12)or 24 combos
    If you add in suited Kings...its about 1/2 more....
    Add in suited Qs...it about another 1/2....
    add in suited 2 gappers its another 1/2,,,,

    Its not exact blockers will actually remove about 1/2 from these), but you will develop and understanding of how the wider range works.


    Hope this helped....and I did not ramble too much...getting late and I'm off the AC early tomorow....








  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    edited September 2017
    You didn't ramble at all.

    So basically you are working out Fold Equity.

    To put it simply, what I was inquiring earlier about "my equity Vs range" is more when someone else is the aggressor and I am faced with a bet or raise.

    What you are/were putting out here is when you are the aggressor, or want to take over the initiative of being the aggressor. You average his fold equity, to adjust your value bets and bluff bets, and semi-bluffs.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,308 ✭✭✭✭
    Joseph F wrote: »
    Just as an aside: Why does everyone here seem to use Flopzilla? I have it, but I find Power Equilab to be far and away the better software. What am I missing?

    You've peaked my interest. I'm going to check this out.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    Daithí wrote: »
    You didn't ramble at all.

    So basically you are working out Fold Equity.

    To put it simply, what I was inquiring earlier about "my equity Vs range" is more when someone else is the aggressor and I am faced with a bet or raise.

    What you are/were putting out here is when you are the aggressor, or want to take over the initiative of being the aggressor. You average his fold equity, to adjust your value bets and bluff bets, and semi-bluffs.

    I would say yes and no.

    What i"m doingis showing you how I do the hand reading part of the poker puzzle.

    By having a way to evaluate the type of hands (the weights) in a way you can use them, then allows you to make decisions of how to play.j

    Yes Simple aggression (you raise and then you cbet and barrel or not) is the first part to learn simpley because in low stake games, with mostly passive oppenents, its where the money is going to come from.

    Against passive players if they raise preflop I'm mostly folding.....when I call the weight of the hands, air to draws to made hands....when they cbet is also important.

    However it's somewhat less important, because their action after flop often define their hands (if they are balanced back to the weights, luckely most are not balances. That is to say they play diffrent parts of their range in diffrent ways, where as in simple aggression they often play diffrent parts of their range the same (e.g. they will check their entire range to the preflop raiser)

    if I I call a r pre flop raiser, I can still put him on a range, and have, and can come up with a simialr set of weights, but I know more....then this......
    I might know he has a bet tell, I might know he bets big hands and air but checks his 2nd pair type hands.....
    I might know that if I call him on the flop he will only bet the turn with a hand....ect....

    In all cases the ability to firgure out the weights/ ratio of different parts of a range is important. It is still only one part to help you plan out how you will best play your poker hands. For simple aggression, it often enough alone to vastly improve your low stakes win rate.




  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,308 ✭✭✭✭
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    Joseph F wrote: »
    Just as an aside: Why does everyone here seem to use Flopzilla? I have it, but I find Power Equilab to be far and away the better software. What am I missing?

    You've peaked my interest. I'm going to check this out.

    Certainly a ton of functionality within this tool. I haven't been able to explore everything, but my first glance is that this can do everything Flopzilla can do plus more.

    I have a free two week trial, should be fun to play around with it.
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