I am a short stacker. Should I change my game?

osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
edited February 2017 in General Concepts
I am a big fan of Ed Millers books and that is why I became a Pro member of Red Chip Poker as soon as I heard of the site.

Currently I am a short stacker. I buy in for $60 at a game that allows buy ins from $60 to $300.

I started playing $1/$2 NLH in my local casino ($1/$2 is all that is available) about three years ago. I play an average of 100 hours a month and I have made $16.50 per hour averaged over the last three years.

A while back I posted the question, "How much can one make at $1/$2 NLH?" and you guys told me it caps out at $20 per hour.
If I can make $16.50 per hour buying in for $60 why would I risk $300 buy ins to maybe made $20 per hour?

Do you think I should just carry on doing what I am doing? Do you think I should change my game? If so, why? and how?

Please keep in mind that I need the money that I am making.

Thanks for your help!!
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Comments

  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    I think if you need the money you are making now, I would suggest you continue doing what you are doing. $16 an hour is good for 1/2NL.

    I think there is a lot of money to be made at deep stack NL because of the grave errors your opponents make at the deeper depth. However, if you are not accustomed to playing deep stacked NL, then I think for now it's better you continue doing what you are doing.

    At some point, maybe when you need the money less, you can work on your DeepStack NL game and do that since I think there is more money to be made there.
  • PokerMotivationPokerMotivation Red Chipper Posts: 42
    What is your general strategy as a short stacker? Just playing premium hands and trying to hit top pair, sets, straights, or flushes and then just jamming all in on flop or turn?

    When you first start at the table with $60, do you limp in a lot? Or do you raise pre?

    $60 seems to be such a tiny stack that it usually gives me trouble playing it.

    Your strategy has perked my interest :)
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's interesting that you are asking for opinions when you already have a great system down and have researched the alternatives. Clearly you are bored and looking for excuses to mix up your game.

    The other thing is, if you short stack well, you end up with a normal stack. In other words, there are no great shortstackers, just cautious, potentially good players who left the game too early.
  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭✭
    So I think on James site (Splitsuit.com) there is a course offered by .... I think his last name is James... on the subject of Mid-Stacking. From what I remember it was very highly reviewed.

    I think a Mid-Stacking strategy would be a natural transition for you. Go check it out.

    ****

    I just went and checked it out. It is called Mid-Stacking Master Combo by PeterPJames on www.splitsuit.com
    Twitter = @ChipXtractor
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,784 -
    osgobo wrote:
    Do you think I should just carry on doing what I am doing? Do you think I should change my game? If so, why? and how?

    I am currently teaching my girl, Laura, to play poker. This is exactly the style she plays and she is doing very well. Now that she is living in Vegas (with me to follow shortly), she will easily be able to hit-and-run always keeping the short stack advantage. There are a thousand tables in LV so I expect her to be working her way up and down the strip doubling up and moving on.

    With you doing the short stack thing for so long, I think it really builds your intuition for the mid-stack games that are inevitable once you double up.

    It ain't broke, don't fix it. Maybe move up in stakes. I can assure you short stacking works just as well at $2-$5, $5-$10. I loved cold shoving all-in at $5-$10 with a short stack over a straddle, raise and three calls. Original raiser calls with J7s, the rest fold leaving plenty of dead money. These techniques work great up and down the stakes.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    I think short stacks grinders are #bad4thegame.
    that's my two cents but besides that it looks like you doing well. :-)
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,784 -
    I think short stacks grinders are #bad4thegame.
    that's my two cents but besides that it looks like you doing well. :-)

    Of course competent short stackers are bad for the game. Competent short stackers take money out of the game, rarely give action bad. They make it a pain in the ass for deep stackers. Winning players in general are "bad for the game" :)
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • PokerMotivationPokerMotivation Red Chipper Posts: 42
    C'mon osgobo. If you want advice then you can't be afraid or unwilling to also give advice in return.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    C'mon
    I think I'm great for the game! I think I'm half decent. The nits/stones just cant wait to catch me! They need me in the game to spice it up for them. Lol.
    People need to give more action in general. That's my opinion.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The live poker ecosystem can sustain all types, from crushing pros to pesky shortstackers. All of them are necessary for the variety and challenge of the game.

    I know they can be irritating and inhibit play to a certain extent, but on the other hand, I love breaking shortstackers. They take it harder because they think they are owed a reward for their patience and transparent strategy; seeing them snap out another resentful Benjamin brings a smile to my face.
  • osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    Hi Guys,

    Thanks for the help!

    PokerMotivation, sorry for the delay, it's long weekend where I live and I was unplugged.

    My strategy is exactly like Doug Hall said "cold shoving all-in". Sometimes in a $1/$2 game I shove $60 under the gun into a $3 pot just to see the look on the face of the guy who looked me up when he gets the bad news. :-)

    In general weather I limp or just ship it depends on how the game is playing, but if you want the best advice I have on the subject, find a spot you like with a good amount of dead money and then just ship it!

    Cheers
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,784 -
    osgobo wrote:
    Hi Guys,

    Thanks for the help!

    PokerMotivation, sorry for the delay, it's long weekend where I live and I was unplugged.

    My strategy is exactly like Doug Hall said "cold shoving all-in". Sometimes in a $1/$2 game I shove $60 under the gun into a $3 pot just to see the look on the face of the guy who looked me up when he gets the bad news. :-)

    In general weather I limp or just ship it depends on how the game is playing, but if you want the best advice I have on the subject, find a spot you like with a good amount of dead money and then just ship it!

    Cheers

    Just to be clear, my cold shove was not 30BB into an unopened pot. I think that is silly.

    The case I was talking about was at $5-$10

    Straddle to $20
    a caller for $20
    A raise to $80
    three callers to $80
    THEN I ship my entire short stack in for $500 into a $475 pot with AK and get called by a ridiculous hand.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    Just to be clear, my cold shove was not 30BB into an unopened pot. I think that is silly.

    Fair enough, and maybe it is a bit silly, however, if I think there is a good chance I will get called I will move in preflop will AA and chance I get.

    Options for play AA UTG with a 30BB stack:

    I like limp re-raise shoving. But when 6 people call and no one raises it kinda sucks.

    Make it 5BB and three people call do you just auto ship the flop?

    Make it 10BB (or more), I have found that most of the time the kind of people that would call 10BB+ are the same kind of people that would call the whole 30BB so why not go for the gold?

    Assume you had to play a 30BB stack how would you play AA UTG?

    Cheers
  • PokerMotivationPokerMotivation Red Chipper Posts: 42
    Haha no problem osgobo I was just giving ya a hard time lol...

    Keep up the good work! I might be forced to short stack soon if I can't learn how to fold :4c :2c haha
  • Ed MillerEd Miller RCP Coach Posts: 330
    The answer to your question depends entirely on what you want to get out of poker. If it's $16/hour, it looks like you're there. :)

    If it's intellectual stimulation, challenging yourself, etc., then I'd try out other strategies too. Honestly, it's up to you.
  • chgosoxfanchgosoxfan Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote:

    I am currently teaching my girl, Laura, to play poker. This is exactly the style she plays and she is doing very well. Now that she is living in Vegas (with me to follow shortly), she will easily be able to hit-and-run always keeping the short stack advantage. There are a thousand tables in LV so I expect her to be working her way up and down the strip doubling up and moving on.

    With you doing the short stack thing for so long, I think it really builds your intuition for the mid-stack games that are inevitable once you double up.

    It ain't broke, don't fix it. Maybe move up in stakes. I can assure you short stacking works just as well at $2-$5, $5-$10. I loved cold shoving all-in at $5-$10 with a short stack over a straddle, raise and three calls. Original raiser calls with J7s, the rest fold leaving plenty of dead money. These techniques work great up and down the stakes.

    One of Doug's students here, and I've recently moved to $2-$5 on weekends if $1-$2 is full. I've never bought in for table max. Can't speak for $5-$10, but weekend $2-$5 in the Chicago area plays almost as loose/passive as $1-$2. I'm not afraid to play deep if I run up my chip stack. I enjoy short-stacking though, it's a nice feeling going to the casino with $300 (or $1,000 on $2-$5 weekends) and be 5 buy-ins deep rather than 1 or 2.
    Doug Hull wrote:
    Of course competent short stackers are bad for the game. Competent short stackers take money out of the game, rarely give action bad. They make it a pain in the ass for deep stackers. Winning players in general are "bad for the game" :)
    Never got it in bad against Doug while short stacking. It doesn't stop be from getting felted by him deep at Pineapple with the 2nd nuts :roll:
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,784 -
    Glad to see Mark out here at Red Chip. Let's get some of your hands posted, bro.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks

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