KK against 2 big stacks - 2/3 NLH

Pocket8sPocket8s Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
edited January 2017 in Live Poker Hands
Sat down at a live 2/3 game and only about 3 orbits have passed before I got this hand, so I don't have very solid reads on the 2 big stack villains. According to the whole table, Villain 2 was on a heater so maybe he has a looser range in this hand. I had a pretty tight image among the table. Villain 1 seemed like a typical TAG player. The only hand they have seen me with at showdown was a chopped pot with AK vs. AK during the first orbit with the first villain. To the hand:

Hero has :Kh:Ks on the button.
Hero has $160 behind, Villain 1 has $750 behind, and Villain 2 had $700 behind.

Villain 1 at UTG limps, UTG +2 limps, Villain 2 at mid position limps, hero raises to $20, only Villain 1 and Villain 2 call.

Flop: :Jd:Qh:Qs
Pot: $68

Checks around to hero who opts to check.

Turn: :9h
Pot: $68

Checks around again to hero who bets $20. Villain 1 folds and Villain 2 min. check-raises to $40. Hero calls.

River: :As
Pot: $148

Villain 2 shoves. Hero folds.

Here's my thoughts on the hand. The flop seemed like a pretty standard place to C-bet but I opted to check instead since a queen is definitely in both their checking ranges and I wanted to control the size of the pot. I block some straight draws with my KK, and there's no flush draw on board.

On the turn, I have a clear spot to raise with both villains checking back. KT and T8s got there, but there's only 8 combos of KT and 4 combos of T8s. Many Ace high flush draws and AJh can now continue, so I want them to pay to see the river (although I should've probably sized my bet a little larger). I also block some other flush draws with my king of hearts, so it takes some flush combos out. I would also get called by JTs, KJ, AJ. The check-raise seemed to polarize Villain 2's range. Either he has a queen or he has some kind of heart/straight/combo draw. I call since my hand is very underrepresented because of the flop check. Perhaps a shove may also be reasonable here but I'm drawing nearly dead to a queen.

River seems like a clear fold. Every ace high flush got there, and a queen still crushes me.

Villain showed his hand after I mucked so I'll comment what his holdings were after I hear your thoughts.

1) Should I have C-bet the flop?
2) What line would you take on the turn?
3) Fold river?

I think there was room for improvement in my bet sizing and my line so please let me know your thoughts on this. Thanks in advance.

Comments

  • PondyPondy Red Chipper Posts: 150 ✭✭
    First of all, it doesn't matter that these guys have deep stacks. You don't, so effective stacks are 60BB. SPR on the flop is 2 and you have an overpair, so this is an auto-stack off pretty much.

    To your questions:
    1) definitely cbet. Yes a Q is in their range, but so are a J, T9, 98, T8, small pocket pairs. All these hands probably call.
    2) if you had cbet the flop and both players had called I would check here, but I would probably still stack off as the SPR by then is tiny. As played, your bet of 20 doesn't accomplish much, so I would have just checked.
    3) As played it is a fold, but I would never have gotten there like this.

    Btw: You descirbe one of the villains as a TAG. I personally doubt a TAG would open-limp call from UTG here.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    I agree entirely with @Pondy, and I would add something. If an opponent appears weak -- as you did by checking the flop and then betting VERY light on the turn -- a min-raise on the turn and a shove on the river is a pretty compelling play no matter what two cards you hold. I don't think that his line necessarily represented a monster: it might have represented a way to steal a pot.

    Again, though, I would never have gotten to this point, either, with this hand.
  • Ethan QEthan Q Red Chipper Posts: 11
    Just heads I'm new to this so my action may not be correct but you ask for an opinion :).

    1. Yes c-bet, I believe it the best course of action because you possibly have the best hand here and you don't want to give a free card on this semi-wet board the only thing their doing here is improving with a turn.

    2. C-bet around 50-60% on flop, depending if one or two callers is where I'd go from there.. turn card with one caller it being a 9 we have 125 in the pot and 100 behind... I almost want to shove this I already committed my self here I don't want him to see a river card.
    If we got 2 callers there on the flop I think I'm checking turn and folding river, that line maybe a bit out maybe 3 ways to the flop you wanna bet bigger in this board I'm not 100% sure..

    3.As played I believe your river here is a fold unfortunately.

    I am interest to what you think of my line?
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    I don't feel comfortable folding here given the price. V2 has no reason to slowplay again on the turn since he's deep with V1. He should be betting here 100% with value to build a pot and deny equity on a deteriorating board. His check raise is not logical. I'll pay to see this one.
  • In The DarkIn The Dark Red Chipper Posts: 226 ✭✭
    You're so short you can't avoid getting it in. DO IT! Q, no Q, don't really matter. Your stack size has only one play.
  • Pocket8sPocket8s Red Chipper Posts: 32 ✭✭
    Thanks for all your feedback everyone. You guys confirmed I definitely took too passive of a line here and should've c-bet the flop. I don't think I would be a big fan of shoving the flop since it folds out some hands that we beat. If I bet something like $40 on the flop, I think even with 2 callers, it would be hard to get away at this point since my SPR would be hovering around 0.5.

    After I folded, Villain 2 flashed QJo for a flopped queens full. Definitely a hand that's in his preflop call range, but as one of you mentioned, I would've expected him to lead out on the turn to get some value here rather than check back twice.

    Still, I probably should've went broke in this hand. I'm pretty certain my flop and turn line were -EV. Just another case where poker can reward bad play and punish good play I suppose.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,944 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Like so many situations in poker, there are conflicting concepts at work. In this case:

    - small SPR (get it in)
    - min raise by typical 1/3 villain (get out)
    - check/raise on the turn by typical 1/3 villain (get out)

    The get outs have it 2-1. The min check/raise on the turn is the strongest possible play by any typical 1/3 player. What it means is: whatever you have, it's not good enough. The only hand you should be tanking over is 99, and after the tank you can fold that. I'm being only slightly facetious.

    Regarding your stack size and SPR, frankly you were asking for this :) You started the hand with a bad (meaning awkward) stack size. Get to 40 BB or less and you can get it in (you would not have been in the min check/raise situation with a higher SPR if you had bet the flop). Or get up to 100 BB and you can get away from the hand.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,944 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pocket8s wrote: »
    After I folded, Villain 2 flashed QJo for a flopped queens full. Definitely a hand that's in his preflop call range, but as one of you mentioned, I would've expected him to lead out on the turn to get some value here rather than check back twice.

    OK, let's think this through. You are a typical (not very sophisticated) 1/3 player. You limp with a weak hand like QJ in EP (because it looks good) and then call a raise (because you have QJ). You flop the unbeatable nuts. Obviously you are going to slowplay. The preflop raiser (villain, you) checks the hand through.

    What exactly is your thought process on the turn? Hope that the 9 made villain's (your) hand because he raised with T8 preflop? Or 99? Or that he was slowplaying AQ himself?

    I would not be surprised to see this hand checked for a third time on the river if you had checked the turn.

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