$2-5 OOP against C/R/R

jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
Hero pretty new to table ($530) , waiting for $1-3 transfer so no real reads yet. Didn't really want to play $2-5 since it has been a big roller coaster for me recently and I think I need to work on my aggressive play at lower stakes.

Pre-flop UTG +2 raises to $20, 2 callers SB calls I call in BB with :KS: s :8s .

Pot $100

Flop :JH::8h:8c . Checks to BU (900~) bet's $30, SB folds, I call thinking I'll let a turn peel off and go for the C/R on the turn if it's safe. UTG (1.4k~) raises to $75, fold, BU tanks for a bit, makes it $235. Hero?


My plan was to initially call, my hand is super under-represented but if UTG rep pops it and BU goes off maybe let it go? I don't want to say what I did yet.
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Comments

  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Fold pre. As played I don't think I can find a fold here. Only hands that we have to worry about are 3 combos of JJ and one combo of A8s. Villains can show up with worse trips, TP, overpairs, and flush draws.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    call it kagey's law or whatever you will...but from my experience, when 3 players are in a hand, the board is paired and there are's at least a bet and a raise... odds are really, really good that two players have trips and the third has a boat.... esp. in a multi-way pot!
  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 404 ✭✭✭
    I agree with Ninjah that this is a fold pre-flop.

    Trips on the flop after a bet, squeeze-raise, and 3-bet. I guess there are 3 plays you can make, and they are all wrong.......

    Just kidding, but I agree with Kagey, you may be folding the best hand, but without any reads on how the opponents are playing I don't think this hand is going to be best frequently enough to justify calling after the action witnessed.
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    Didn't really want to play $2-5 since it has been a big roller coaster for me recently and I think I need to work on my aggressive play at lower stakes.

    This actually bothers me more than anything else in the post... You got to be comfortable at the stakes you are playing, or you won't be able to play right. IMHO, just wait for the table where you are comfortable playing.

  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 777 ✭✭✭

    insta shove

    This 100BB poker. There are no exploitative folds with the goods... and you got em. Is there concern? Yeah, but so what. Let's get the money in and see what happens. When post flop spots like these come up, keep saying to yourself over and over again:

    There are no exploitative folds at 100BB with the goods.

    PS. don't listen to anyone who says you will only get called by better and you are allowing villains to play perfectly. That is simply not true

    PSS. even if you win this hand it's probably not going to make up for all the other money you are going to lose calling raises OOP with crap
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    So tell me if I should stop this line of thinking now. I normally will toss :KS::8S: the BB to an open, recently I've been trying to play more hands to work on post-flop. Pot is $67. I need to call $15 to win $67. I think :KS::8S: has at least the 22% equity required to call here. That being said, this is raw equity. I am OOP. Should I not look at it like hmm I only need to have 22% equity. When I really think about it, I suppose that the only flops I really love are K8, 88 and spade flops, I can't really make a straight my king is dominated a ton of the time ect. Perhaps I need to reconsider this line of thinking. Then again, flush-draws only hit like 4% of the time, but isn't that enough of a margin to maybe justify a call here?
  • Mr. DontMr. Dont Red Chipper Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    I would play as long as pre actions wasnt too big. Suited kings hope to make nut flush on A high board. You floped trips w/ strong kicker. Based on flop action, I would get it in.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017
    Probably a fold pre as others have said. You're out of position, little fold equity, pot is bloated, and K8s can make alot of 2nd best hands.

    As played it looks ugly at a glance without good reads, but if either BTN has 98, T8s, 87, 86s, those outnumber JJ/J8s/A8 (UTG+1 could have JJ/A8) by a small margin (10 to 7), so I think you could argue either for folding or getting it in based on uncertainty. I lean toward getting it in because pots a good size and if we have about 46% equity were good to commit.
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 787 ✭✭✭
    Can we discount full houses from either opponent's range, particularly buttons ? This seems like an ideal spot to slowplay those. Then there are a lot more hands you're ahead of than behind, although I don't think you're far ahead (if at all) vs combo draws.

    I think I would get it in, hoping to see a lot of overpairs, weaker 8s and nut flush and combo draws that are blocking each other's outs, expecting to lose often but win enough to be profitable.
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    PFR wants to check 5-way on a flop with flush and straight potential from 3rd pos, but then make a tiny pot building check raise after a bet and call? Then, undeterred the BTN reraises? There's only a single 8 left in the deck.

    @sullyooo I agree that at 100bb heads up you really shouldn't be able to escape trips, but the trouble here is we're 3-way with the other two villains 180bb deep and starting the fireworks. Feels like we're caught in the crossfire.
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 787 ✭✭✭
    I would argue that with two other people showing interest in the pot, it would be a mistake to raise a full house. With only one 8 left in the deck, it's likely at least one of your opponents has a big draw. It's also likely the other has either the case 8. Whether the turn is a blank or completes a draw, one of your opponents is likely to want to put more money in. There is also very little to protect against (your opponents have three outs max.). Raising only potentially scares away customers. The small size of the UTG+2 raise ("pot-builder" as @Yosh put it) does provide some counter to this argument, I'd be less surprised to see a full house from this player.

    If neither can have a full house, there are only at most four hands ahead of you (A8o) and plenty of hands you're ahead of (one each of T8s, 98s, 87s, 86s, lots of nut flush draws, 3 combo draws, less likely overpairs). I would expect most of these hands would call a shove. Even if I'm wrong on full houses, there's still only four (3 of JJ and one of J8s) so we're still probably ahead more than we're behind.

    So I think
    a. It's unlikely we're behind
    b. We're pretty much committed once we put in half our stack, so shoving seems better than calling
    c. There's plenty of worse hands that would call a shove

    I propose shoving is the highest EV play, absent better info on our opponents. I'd expect to see UTG+2 turn up with an overpair or the nut flush draw, and button to turn up with the case 8.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 777 ✭✭✭
    @Yosh yeah we are in the crossfire. My point simply is we should not be here but we are here now and folding doesn't make sense even facing this troubling action

    @jfarrow13
    Yes, you should stop this line of thinking right now. The single biggest mistake players at 1-2, 2-5 and 5-10 make is playing too many hands, especially drawing hands for raises, especially OOP @ 125BB or less.

    When it comes to drawing hands, It's not the size of the raise that matters, it's the size of the pot. Because of SPR. You are going to be in low SPR (1-3 SPR) pots or awkward SPR (4-6 SPR) pots at 100BB quite a bit

    You are almost never going to bink your hand on the flop and worse case scenario is you are going to flop a draw. Why worst case scenario? Because the pot is so big you will be incentivized to either get it in as a 2-1 dog or bleed your stack by improperly calling bets that are going to be big because of the original size of the pot.

    Too many times you are going to be the guy staring at the river card with his whole stack in the middle and saying "I missed"

    OR

    The guy who punts $150 every time he chases those draws and has to give up

    OR

    The guy who hit his flush and his opponents quit playing without paying


    Of course, in this hand, you could flop a K . A couple of pot sized bets from your opponents ought to make you feel real good about holding that


    Now 1.37% of the time you are going to hit trips. And, apparently, some of those times you are actually considering a fold????


    I can't tell you how many times I hear someone throw $15-$50 into the pot preflop and hear them say "I can't fold now, I would never fold anything with these pot odds"

    Don't be one of those guys.......Let the folding preflop begin in earnest


    if you are playing in my game, please disregard this post
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    @colldav

    b. It's 2/5. We've only put in <10% at this point.
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 787 ✭✭✭
    @Yosh , it's $235 to call, our starting stack was $530. My point was that shoving is a better option than calling (one of those leverage spots ?) rather than we are pot committed already.

    The shove is based on the assumption we are ahead enough to compensate for the fact we're way behind full houses and A8, and not much ahead of the draws.
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    Why is shoving better?
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 787 ✭✭✭
    If we assume our opponent will call with full houses, trips and good draws, and that we'd have to call off the rest of our stack on pretty much any turn card, then shoving gets money out of out opponents draws we might not get otherwise. I'm assuming UTG+2 won't call the reraise with overpairs whether we call or shove.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If for some reason you desire your hand to look impossibly strong, calling is option A.
  • rabidjazzrabidjazz Red Chipper Posts: 106 ✭✭
    edited January 2017
    So, if I have this right, on the flop, the PFR C/R to $75 into a $160 pot?
    After his call of the button's $30 bet, that will be a raise of $45 into a pot of $190.

    This looks to me like a flopped FH trying to goose the pot a bit without betting enough to chase any big draws away. What other hand would reasonably want to reopen the betting here for such a small amount? This bet is begging for calls.

    Since I didn't fold PF (which I would have), I am folding to the button's raise, not because I am afraid of the button but because I believe I am drawing dead to the PFR.

    Or perhaps I am not reading the action correctly?


    -rJ
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭
    rabidjazz wrote: »
    So, if I have this right, on the flop, the PFR C/R to $75 into a $160 pot?
    After his call of the button's $30 bet, that will be a raise of $45 into a pot of $190.

    This looks to me like a flopped FH trying to goose the pot a bit without betting enough to chase any big draws away. What other hand would reasonably want to reopen the betting here for such a small amount? This bet is begging for calls.

    Since I didn't fold PF (which I would have), I am folding to the button's raise, not because I am afraid of the button but because I believe I am drawing dead to the PFR.

    Or perhaps I am not reading the action correctly?


    -rJ

    So you're putting the preflop raiser on precisely 3 combos of JJ and making a soul read fold? He can't show up here with AhKh, AhQh, AhAx, or any other hands for that matter?
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    colldav wrote: »
    I would argue that with two other people showing interest in the pot, it would be a mistake to raise a full house.
    I played in a multi-way pot that was raised PF - I check raised a QQ5 board with 55 from oop... got called by AQ and KQ - shoved on the turn and tripled up on a brick river.

    On a paired board - you WANT to raise if you've got a boat with something like JJ because you want to build a pot with that other players holding an 8. Nobody is going to fold trips on the flop and turn - but they will make a hero fold on the river if they don't boat up.

    the point of raising is to build the pot while players still think their hands are strong.
    it's even possible that :TH::9H: plays his hand fast here as well.

    These are rare circumstances - but I've seen it happen enough to know that when 3 players are betting and raising on a paired board... the one that's the most eager to bloat the pot typically already has a boat.
  • rabidjazzrabidjazz Red Chipper Posts: 106 ✭✭
    edited January 2017
    I am, without anything else to go on.

    The only thing we really have to go on here is his PFR, the fact that he C/Red, and his bet sizing. We are new to the table and have no there info on him.

    I would expect him to lead out with any overpairs to the board, or C/R bigger, if that is what he wants to do.

    What's the goal of his raise here with the hands you mentioned? Why such a tiny raise?

    AhKh isn't getting folds with this raise, and is only reopening the betting for the button to come over the top if he has a real hand, when the button is giving him great odds to draw.

    I think it is more likely that button has a big draw or 8x.

    You don't think this a pretty lame C/R with anything else?

    -rJ
  • jjakestr8jjakestr8 Red Chipper Posts: 78 ✭✭
    What are you hoping to flop? Other than a flush this is about as good as it gets.

    I ship it over the 235
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 787 ✭✭✭
    @kagey , I'm not advocating always slow playing a full house in a multiway pot. I'm also just throwing an idea out there for discussion. Very happy to hear counterarguments.

    For me, the rank of the paired card and the presence of draws would impact how likely I would be to slow play. For example you'd expect to see trips a lot on a QQ5 board, not so much on a Q55 board.

    I'd be less inclined to raise on a drawy board because I would usually play draws more passively on a paired board multiway:
    a. There is less fold equity multiway;
    b. Implied odds are better keeping more players in the pot;
    c. I'd expect draws to be more likely to fold to heavy action because they're not drawing to the nuts (I appreciate this relies on an assumption full houses are raising);
    d. My opponents will have a hard time folding if their draw comes in.
    e. With a full house I'm not blocking trips and my hand looks like a draw, so I expect an opponent with trips will do the betting for me.

    I don't follow why your opponents will me more likely to hero fold to a river bet if you don't raise than they would be inclined to fold on the flop or turn when you do raise. Why do your opponents "still think their hands are strong" when you check-raise them ?
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭
    rabidjazz wrote: »
    I am, without anything else to go on.

    The only thing we really have to go on here is his PFR, the fact that he C/Red, and his bet sizing. We are new to the table and have no there info on him.

    I would expect him to lead out with any overpairs to the board, or C/R bigger, if that is what he wants to do.

    What's the goal of his raise here with the hands you mentioned? Why such a tiny raise?

    AhKh isn't getting folds with this raise, and is only reopening the betting for the button to come over the top if he has a real hand, when the button is giving him great odds to draw.

    I think it is more likely that button has a big draw or 8x.

    You don't think this a pretty lame C/R with anything else?

    -rJ

    So you don't think he'll c/r AA or KK to protect against draws?
  • rabidjazzrabidjazz Red Chipper Posts: 106 ✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »

    So you don't think he'll c/r AA or KK to protect against draws?

    He might. But do you think a C/R of $45 into $190 protects against anything?

    -rJ
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭
    rabidjazz wrote: »
    Ninjah wrote: »

    So you don't think he'll c/r AA or KK to protect against draws?

    He might. But do you think a C/R of $45 into $190 protects against anything?

    -rJ

    Of course not, but I also know that many live players often don't properly understand bet sizing. We don't have any history or reads on these players. My entire point is that folding trips here based on the info we have is very exploitative. We're at the top of our range here. If we're folding in this spot, what exactly are we continuing with?
  • rabidjazzrabidjazz Red Chipper Posts: 106 ✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    Of course not, but I also know that many live players often don't properly understand bet sizing. We don't have any history or reads on these players. My entire point is that folding trips here based on the info we have is very exploitative. We're at the top of our range here. If we're folding in this spot, what exactly are we continuing with?

    Yeah, good point.

    It is more likely that he doesn't understand proper bet sizing than he has JJ.

    -rJ
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    I would be shocked if PFR shows up with anything but JJ or weird air (AK), and equally shocked if the button shows up with any drawing hand or less than A8s. This is hand is killing me inside. Please post results soon!

  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm glad this hand sparked so much debate. So I tanked for a while and ended up folding. I thought a AJ ect would bet the flop, over pairs bet the flop, and obviously I'm a pussy who doesn't want to get stacked for his 2 $1-3 buy-ins within 20 minutes of getting to the casino while waiting.


    He tanks for a bit and calls.


    Turn was a :QS: s .


    UTG thinks for about 15 seconds and bets $265.


    BU tanks and tanks and finally goes all-in. UTG quickly calls and tables :Jd:Js . BU tosses his cards and goes off swearing "I knew you had that sh*t. I f**cking knew it." racks up and leaves while swearing.


    After he lefts UTG is trying to not smile and be happy and the table is talking about the hand and he was like "yeah I was really stuck between jamming and trying to make it look like I just wanted to get a cheap river with the hearts. I'm almost positive he had the 8, but if I jammed I thought he might fold thinking maybe I had a better 8." I was very pleased with my lay-down initially, but I'm always happy when my hero calls or hero folds turn out to be right, but that doesn't make them necessarily a good play, that's why I wanted to run this through the forum. Seeing as a lot of you eluded to a very high possibility of him have JJ without knowing the results, I think MAYBE it was a decent fold in said spot.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    there were a lot of mistakes here... but calling with :KS::8S: isn't one of them.
    Hero was in the big blind. He should be defending his big blind to a single raise with a lot of hands. If you look at it on Flopzilla... K8s is under 20% of all hands.
    Are we really folding 20% of all hands to a small pre-flop raise?
    If you're folding that much pre - then you're folding too much.

    the first and the biggest mistake is the check.
    on top of that, checking with intentions of check/raising... the turn!
    wow!
    can we choose to play our hand more transparently?

    we should lead out on the flop.
    not because we have an 8, but because we have a lot of hands in our range that should lead the flop.

    next, we smooth call a Button bet.
    what hands would a BB call a pfr AND call a flop bet from oop on a paired board?
    who are we fooling?

    what are we doing?
    waiting for a safe card?
    why?

    playing possum might be a way to come in second at the WSOP Main Event, but it's a horrible way to win chips in a live game.

    Hero was lucky to get away so cheap.
    But trust me, playing poker the way he did a recipe for failure.

    If you have your reasons for NOT betting the near-perfect flop with K8s... then, yes...
    DO NOT PLAY K8s to a raise in the BB. Otherwise, call pre... and get some damn chips in there!
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    there were a lot of mistakes here... but calling with :KS::8S: isn't one of them.
    Hero was in the big blind. He should be defending his big blind to a single raise with a lot of hands. If you look at it on Flopzilla... K8s is under 20% of all hands.
    Are we really folding 20% of all hands to a small pre-flop raise?
    If you're folding that much pre - then you're folding too much.
    ...

    I think I slightly disagree here. We're being laid a price, of course, and K8s has enough equity to call pre-flop. (I don't think we need to worry about defending X% once BTN, SB, et al. have called. It would matter if we were HU vs. an open.)

    But what are we going to do with that equity? How are we going to realize that equity when we'll be OOP for the rest of the hand?

    So, as ever, we need to know what our plan is, or better yet our strategy. I'm sure Berkey or Soto can call here and be +EV but that's because they'll outplay everyone post-flop. I'm less sure that us mortals, down in the mines, can get there.

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