Dynamic vs Static flops

tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
Are all flops either Dynamic (Js Ts 3c) or Static (Qh 7s 3c)? There are obviously more Dynamic flops than Static. Are these two categories relative to the ranges of hands both players are playing? I suspect there are a majority of Flops that fall into the grey zone that have both qualities. Do we need a third category for these type of flops.

Comments

  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Theoretically, yes. But, I consider something dynamic if it is likely to be a four-card draw (except an inside-straight draw; I consider that static) -- e.g., two suited cards or cards with no more than a two-gap between them. Otherwise, I usually consider it static.

    Obviously, there are counter-examples, and particular V's might have different static/dynamic boards for their range. But, I find that the nuances are usually slight enough that I don't tend to veer too much unless given a good reason (e.g., unique V, unusual betting pattern on the flop or turn, etc., a pot with 5+ people in it, etc.).
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 790 ✭✭✭
    Rather than thinking of "dynamic" and "static" and distinct, separate categories, I prefer to think of boards lying on the spectrum of dynamism, from "extremely dynamic" to "extremely static". This should impact the degree to which board texture influences your actions.

    I think ranges absolutely impact dynamism. The types of boards you would consider dynamic in a four bet pot clearly differs from what you would consider dynamic after raising limpers.

  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    colldav wrote: »
    Rather than thinking of "dynamic" and "static" and distinct, separate categories, I prefer to think of boards lying on the spectrum of dynamism, from "extremely dynamic" to "extremely static". This should impact the degree to which board texture influences your actions.

    I think ranges absolutely impact dynamism. The types of boards you would consider dynamic in a four bet pot clearly differs from what you would consider dynamic after raising limpers.

    Agreed with @colldav on the above regarding a spectrum, as well as ranges impacting dynamism. Thinking about this spectrum is useful and so is something like Ed Miller's categorization of type 1/2/3 boards. But these simplifications necessarily lose nuance.

    As far as I know, there is no published material that explores all of the nuances of flop texture in depth but, in fairness, it is a big topic. So I recently wondered if I could approach (and have begun work on) a study of all textures in all of the most common situations/formations. I began using a solver to examine these but was dissuaded here and am now taking a different approach.

    Here is a good starting place for flop subsets to represent the entire game, ranging from 25 to 184 flops. Using a subset we can begin to visualize all types of flops, what is most common, how ranges interact, run-outs, etc.
  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 607 ✭✭✭
    tfazio wrote: »
    Are all flops either Dynamic (Js Ts 3c) or Static (Qh 7s 3c)?

    I think the (Qh 7s 3c) would be considered "dry" (in that it does not hit a lot of hands) but I am not sure it would be considered very "static" (as there are a quite a few cards that can fall that can change who is leading.)

    I think Miller has a book that discusses wet/dry/static/dynamic flops, I can't remember which one now.
  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    I have been playing with the Flop definitions in Flop Falcon and trying to understand how they are divided. It appears that under "Basic"; Unpaired rainbow 31% + Paired Rainbow 9% + Unpaired Suited 46% + Paired Suited 8% + Monotone 5% + Trips 1% = 100% of Flops. The frequency that they occur is listed.
    I was also trying to make sense of the Static and Dynamic. The static flops seem to occur less frequently 4% vs 19% but the both only add up to 25% of flops so there seems to be a large grey area. Anyone playing around with this? Paging Doug Hull.
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    JoeOffsuit wrote: »
    tfazio wrote: »
    Are all flops either Dynamic (Js Ts 3c) or Static (Qh 7s 3c)?

    I think the (Qh 7s 3c) would be considered "dry" (in that it does not hit a lot of hands) but I am not sure it would be considered very "static" (as there are a quite a few cards that can fall that can change who is leading.)

    I think Miller has a book that discusses wet/dry/static/dynamic flops, I can't remember which one now.

    K83/K82/Q72r are considered the most dry and static flops because there are no turn cards that can make a straight and few cards that can change top pair. Q73r seems only slightly less static due to possible gutshots. Wet/dry and static/dynamic are different categories that can overlap.
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    tfazio wrote: »
    I have been playing with the Flop definitions in Flop Falcon and trying to understand how they are divided. It appears that under "Basic"; Unpaired rainbow 31% + Paired Rainbow 9% + Unpaired Suited 46% + Paired Suited 8% + Monotone 5% + Trips 1% = 100% of Flops. The frequency that they occur is listed.
    I was also trying to make sense of the Static and Dynamic. The static flops seem to occur less frequently 4% vs 19% but the both only add up to 25% of flops so there seems to be a large grey area. Anyone playing around with this? Paging Doug Hull.

    @tfazio I think you'd first need a firm definition of static vs. dynamic. Given that it's a spectrum you'll need to draw an arbitrary line somewhere. If I knew where you drew the line then I might be able to give you an answer.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    I would be really interested to know how you classify flops guys !

    I am currently studying my ranges on specific flops and I am still figuring a simple way to classify them on my excel sheet.

    What would be the most quick and efficient way ?
  • boyd148boyd148 Red Chipper Posts: 98 ✭✭
    i'm pretty sure that Fazio's question pertains to how Flop Falcon is classifying flops, not how he is classifying them. He seems to be asking why Flop Falcon is classifying 4% as static and 19% as dynamic and he wants to know how the other 77% are accounted for.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    I understand but I'm still asking the question.
  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    Great question. I am exploring this in Flop Falcon and will post my assumptions.
    Under the basic flop types in Flop Falcon these are the aprox. frequencies;
    UP rainbow 31%
    UP suited 46%
    Paired rainbow 9%
    Paired suited 8%
    Monotone 5%
    Trips 1%
    equals 100% of all flops

    Static and Dynamic have strict definitions in FF but I believe we can expand them.
  • tfaziotfazio Red Chipper Posts: 819 ✭✭✭
    The tests I have come up with for the sake of discussion if a flop is dynamic are:
    Is the Flop Suited or Monotone therefore FD.
    Is the Flop Jack high or lower and unpaired therefore there will always be some connection to a straight therefore SD also over cards can come.
    If the Flop contains high cards (more than one, A K or Q ) and is unpaired
    therefore SD.
    Paired flops can contain also FD or SD
    I think I have covered all to edge cases.
    Static would be the absence of these elements.
  • Doug KDoug K Red Chipper Posts: 2
    edited October 2018
    Would really like to see the Flop Falcon definition for static and dynamic. Quite frankly, would like to see the definitions for all the board textures... This should be information that is readily shared.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    IMO you are making the definition too complicated.

    It comes down too are there a lot of cards on the turn that will make a one pair made hand unhappy ...Because these cards will allow to steal a lot of pots on the turn, or get the pot stolen from you.

    On a Qs7s3h flop...are there really many cards that make A Q hate his hand....not really....Really that As and the Ks are the only really bad cards. Sure a spade not fun, but it really only gets a nit off for one bet....

    Compare it to 9s7h5s now give someone a 9 or TT ....8s6s Ts Js Qs Ks all make this hand fold.....and any K or Q, 8 or 6 or any other spade will not be fun.....

    If you think of why your classifying flops as dynamic or static the definition becomes more obvious. Against an uber nit, at lot more flops are dynamic....against a calling station, a lot more flops become static.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,876 -
    Doug K wrote: »
    Would really like to see the Flop Falcon definition for static and dynamic. Quite frankly, would like to see the definitions for all the board textures... This should be information that is readily shared.

    I just looked into the code:

    Static must be all:
    • Has a High card (AKQ)
    • Is rainbow
    • No straight draws

    Dynamic must be all:
    • Jack high or less
    • Not rainbow
    • Possible straight draws
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks

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