3/5- Deep and OOP on dynamic board vs. LAG

porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
edited February 2017 in Live Poker Hands
Villain and gameflow
Villain battles. He plays a ton of hands, generally in position, 3-bets and raises with a much wider range than most, always applying pressure, seems to have a good understanding of board texture and range advantage (I'm inferring based on when he chooses to apply pressure, run bluffs, etc.); is a pro.

At his best, he's not someone I want in the game. But he is frequently and severely tilty. When losing he gets upset and starts playing every hand (at least any two suited) and won't let up. For example, earlier tonight we're playing 5/T and I'd won two medium pots against him in the past orbit; so he 3-bets me with 73cc, 2 barrels no pair no draw, shows the bluff, and says he had to take a stand. We played 4-handed briefly but the 5/T game broke.

Villain likely sees me as a serious reg. Probably views me as on the tight side (as most are, relative to him). Although he knows I will battle with him, he recently told me that he thinks I always show up with the goods. Knows that I know he's very LAG.

Game is getting looser and looser, plenty of action driven by me and villain. Table open size is increasing I think partly due to me (I'm active and opening to 5-7x) and partly due to the looseness of the game (if you 3x, it will go 6 ways). Villain is maybe a 4 on a scale of 1 to "have you lost your mind?" But I think he wants to battle with me when given the chance.

Hand
Hero (BB): $1255
UTG+1: $600
Villain (HJ): covers

$3/5 spread (bet/raise is capped at $500), $1,000 cap. Hero is BB with :Qd:Qc ($875 eff). UTG+1 raises to $25 and Villain calls from HJ. Hero raises to $115, UTG+1 folds, and Villain calls.

Villain's flat/flat range (?): 88-22,ATs-A2s,KJs-K9s,QJs-Q9s,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s-86s,76s-75s,65s-64s,54s-53s,43s,[25]K8s,Q8s,ATo,KJo,QJo,JTo[/25],[75]J8s,T7s[/75],[50]99[/50]

My squeeze range: AA-99,AKs-AJs,KQs-KJs,QJs,JTs,T9s,AKo-AQo,KQo,[50]88,98s[/50] (Maybe too wide because I don't know if I squeeze all of those when the opener is only 120BB effective.)

(Pot: $255) :9d:8c:5d
($1140 effective.) Hero checks, Villain bets $140, Hero raises to $640, Villain thinks for longer than normal (20-30 seconds or so) and calls.

($1535) :9d:8c:5d:As
($500 eff.) Hero bets $500.

What is your plan on this flop? I know what I had in mind and will explain/rationalize later. Not sure how interesting this one is but I was itching to post a hand so... please share your thoughts.

Comments

  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭
    Seems perfectly fine to me. On a board like that, there are plenty of second best hands that can continue, especially with how you described Villain. When he doesn't jam, he's likely capped at one pair or a draw.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 777 ✭✭✭
    Heads up I would prefer leading 1/2 pot. It keeps my options open and I use the same bet size for bluffs. Deep stacked I'm not all gung ho to play for stacks with a pair

    As played, I'm pretty concerned with villain's call. This situation is vastly different than the others you described. In the other hands villain is the aggressor, applying pressure. Now, all of a sudden, he has gone passive for committing money. This doesn't look like battling to me.

    My question to you is:

    Is villain willing to put $1000 (this $500 and your last $500 on the turn , which he knows is coming because you are probably committed) on a draw? Does it look like the play of "a pro"?

    I am seeing MUB here.

    In my own defense I'll just say.....even paranoiacs have enemies :)






  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    Calling a monster check raise in a 3b pot doesn't cap the villain.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is interesting... because you are assigning him such a wide range that you get to treat a 3bet pot like a 2bet pot. Upon reflection, do you still agree with your ranging?
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    It is interesting... because you are assigning him such a wide range that you get to treat a 3bet pot like a 2bet pot. Upon reflection, do you still agree with your ranging?

    No, in hindsight I don't think I agree with my ranging. Still wide, but more like: 99-44,ATs-A5s,KJs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s-86s,76s,65s,[25]33-22,A4s-A2s,K9s,Q9s,75s,64s,54s[/25]. I am omitting JJ-TT entirely because I have seen him cold 4-bet those hands.

    It's hard to know for sure because flat/flat is not a spot you see often and I must weight how much he wants to battle.
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
    sullyooo wrote: »
    Heads up I would prefer leading 1/2 pot. It keeps my options open and I use the same bet size for bluffs. Deep stacked I'm not all gung ho to play for stacks with a pair

    As played, I'm pretty concerned with villain's call. This situation is vastly different than the others you described. In the other hands villain is the aggressor, applying pressure. Now, all of a sudden, he has gone passive for committing money. This doesn't look like battling to me.

    My question to you is:

    Is villain willing to put $1000 (this $500 and your last $500 on the turn , which he knows is coming because you are probably committed) on a draw? Does it look like the play of "a pro"?

    I am seeing MUB here.

    In my own defense I'll just say.....even paranoiacs have enemies :)

    Are you c-betting 1/2 pot on this board texture in particular (where villain has range advantage) or all boards? My concern about c-betting is that it's very easy for villain to put me in a bind by flatting and raising a mixed range. And on the turn, I won't have good visibility as to what cards help or hurt me.

    Villain plays with a disregard for money. I agree that it is somewhat concerning when he chooses to flat rather than get it in. Sorry if I was misleading with the "pro" label. I mean that to convey his experience (and his A-game is sharp) but I think he's too tilty to be a long term winner.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    First of all, are you CR for value? If not, I think the cr is better when stacks are deeper/you dont have a weird cap on the betting (where is this?). When you have deeper stacks and have the threat of being able to go all in it forces your opponent to reveal his range and gives you leverage on the turn when he calls. Then when the A comes you can bet again.

    Here you dont have that. He can flat his entire range on the flop knowing hes getting 4:1 on his money on the turn. Had stacks been deeper hes more incintevized to reraise with portions of his range. Also, you commit yourself when you cr flop, for better or worse.

    You also know this guy to be aggressive (whos capable of a cold 4bet with JJ, TT) which i think will tilt range advantage more in his favor than most villains
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is a good point, WL. The spread limit games create problems deep in hands, and small bet/large bet works with the structure better.

    However he has problems OOP, so he is not merely raising for value, but for protection, and so is balancing his concerns. Is it manageable, is the question.

    The good news is that while he lays better odds on the turn, he has eaten up the implied odds by pressuring now.
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    What kind of bluffs do you have after 3b preflop with this line on this flop?
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
    Well, I can’t blame anyone for having lost interest at this point, but I’ll make a bit of an effort to revive this. Thanks for all comments so far.
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    First of all, are you CR for value? If not, I think the cr is better when stacks are deeper/you dont have a weird cap on the betting (where is this?). When you have deeper stacks and have the threat of being able to go all in it forces your opponent to reveal his range and gives you leverage on the turn when he calls. Then when the A comes you can bet again.

    Here you dont have that. He can flat his entire range on the flop knowing hes getting 4:1 on his money on the turn. Had stacks been deeper hes more incintevized to reraise with portions of his range. Also, you commit yourself when you cr flop, for better or worse.

    You also know this guy to be aggressive (whos capable of a cold 4bet with JJ, TT) which i think will tilt range advantage more in his favor than most villains

    @Wiki_Leaks Yes, x/r for value vs. most of his range, protection vs. some, and want to check in general because I think he’ll make the mistake of betting here too frequently (with almost his entire range).

    I think I understand what you mean re: tilting range advantage in his favor. He has top end advantage (more combos of 99 and 88; only he has 55 and 76s) but I have overall advantage because there is so much garbage in his range.

    However, I’m somewhat ambivalent about the ranges I’m assigning both of us. I know he plays looser in position and wants to battle, but he was flatting vs. UTG (vs. an unknown) and I squeezed OOP vs. UTG, so maybe ranges are tighter than I think. Also, it’s easy for me to say that I have X bluffs here when I’m playing the top end of my range but…
    Yosh wrote: »
    What kind of bluffs do you have after 3b preflop with this line on this flop?

    @Yosh I should have AK-AJdd, KQ-KJdd, QJs, JTs. I’m still not sure how wide my value range should be (for example, it seems bad to be x/r JJ and TT here).
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    When I referred to range advantage I was referring to once he calls your CR. The A on the turn is not the best card for you as all his nut flush draws now have a pair, which he certainly bet calls on the flop (you might be overestimating the amount of garbage in his range once he calls the CR).

    I also noticed your squeeze range. I think this range might be too wide, especially from the BB where you are incentivized to flat a larger percentage of the time, and especially too wide vs the guy who is probably not folding to you very often in position.

    As for the flop CR, I like it better than betting.
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    When I referred to range advantage I was referring to once he calls your CR. The A on the turn is not the best card for you as all his nut flush draws now have a pair, which he certainly bet calls on the flop (you might be overestimating the amount of garbage in his range once he calls the CR).

    I also noticed your squeeze range. I think this range might be too wide, especially from the BB where you are incentivized to flat a larger percentage of the time, and especially too wide vs the guy who is probably not folding to you very often in position.

    As for the flop CR, I like it better than betting.

    OK, I see what you mean. I agree that he has range advantage once he calls the flop. And the turn adds to his advantage slightly, at least with the ranges I'm looking at now. The downside of checking is just that, if his range is really wide, then he gets to realize his equity more cheaply than if I'd bet. Though I did charge him quite a bit on the flop.
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
    Results:
    ($2535) :9d:8c:5d:As:QS:

    Did I need that Q or not? I don't know but my hand is good. Villain doesn't show but also doesn't berate me, so...

    And a short story (it's a bad beat, don't say I didn't warn you) about a hand vs. same villain from a few months ago:
    5/10/20 (with the same silly $500 betting cap, which changes things a lot- or should). Villain has $2425, Hero covers.

    Villain was on megatilt until recently, still steaming. He announced it to the table, legit-like, not the "I'm on tilt. Raise." sort of silliness. He told the table that when he is on tilt, his chips mean nothing to him. They are just weapons.

    Hero opens AA from CO to $80, Villain 3-bets from BTN to $275, and it folds to Hero. Hero 4-bets to $775 and Villain calls.

    ($1585) :Jc:9d:6s
    Hero bets $500, villain raises to $1000, Hero raises to $1500, and villain goes all-in for $1650 total.

    ($4885) :Jc:9d:6s:2d:5H:

    Hero fastrolls his hand but villain enthusiastically and quickly turns over 87o (the river clearly pleased him, so I was ready for the bad news- sort of.)

    Hero smiles and says to villain, "So, can we assume that you're off tilt now? As long as you're done steaming then I guess I'm happy for you." :) Not the greatest line, but I was pleased with myself for not being annoyed and making a joke in the moment.

    And, in answer to your question @Wiki_Leaks, this is in Arizona.

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