One more question same tourney as below re AQ

JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
A little later in tourney. I think like 23 of us left.

Blinds 12000/24000/2400

Hero CO: 734641 (30bbs)
V1 M1: 1158536 (48bbs)
V2 HJ: 2115465 (88bbs)

I'm new to this table so don't know how these 2 are playing.

V1 opens to 64800
V2 calls

Pot is 187200

Hero is in the CO with :As :Qc

So my question is.... Is it ok to just call in this spot? Is AQ any good here with a raise and call? I didn't feel comfortable 3 betting into these 2. Are we ever folding here and why?

Comments

  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    Honestly I shove here. We have a top 5% hand vs an opening range that is probably around 10-15% (in a vacuum) & stand to increase our stack by 20% without a showdown. If called we're behind stuff the top of villain's range, but are also flipping a fair deal w/ 88-JJ, are ahead of a suspicious AJs, KQs, etc. Fold Equity + Equity When Called makes this a good play.

    One last thing to consider, that I think is a huge factor when at the short/medium stack range in an anted structure, is the antes and their impact on our stack. At a glance it appears we have a "30BB stack" -- perhaps too big to shove with. But with the ante there is something called the "True BB" effect. Antes make our stack diminish way faster, so in a real sense our 30BB stack no longer plays like a 30BB stack over several orbits -- we're under way more pressure. So in effect our stack is artificially shortened by the antes. If you add up the preflop pot blinds + antes and multiply that by 2/3, you get the "true BB" and divide your stack by that. In this case it's around 30K, which would make your stack around 24-25BB in "truth". I think we're happy shoving a 25BB because it falls in the range of a "resteal" stack.
  • JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    Monad wrote: »
    Honestly I shove here. We have a top 5% hand vs an opening range that is probably around 10-15% (in a vacuum) & stand to increase our stack by 20% without a showdown. If called we're behind stuff the top of villain's range, but are also flipping a fair deal w/ 88-JJ, are ahead of a suspicious AJs, KQs, etc. Fold Equity + Equity When Called makes this a good play.

    One last thing to consider, that I think is a huge factor when at the short/medium stack range in an anted structure, is the antes and their impact on our stack. At a glance it appears we have a "30BB stack" -- perhaps too big to shove with. But with the ante there is something called the "True BB" effect. Antes make our stack diminish way faster, so in a real sense our 30BB stack no longer plays like a 30BB stack over several orbits -- we're under way more pressure. So in effect our stack is artificially shortened by the antes. If you add up the preflop pot blinds + antes and multiply that by 2/3, you get the "true BB" and divide your stack by that. In this case it's around 30K, which would make your stack around 24-25BB in "truth". I think we're happy shoving a 25BB because it falls in the range of a "resteal" stack.

    Yikes! You would shove here? Jeez I wasn't even comfortable 3 betting let alone 3 betting it all in. So you are saying calling is not the answer. It is all in or fold?

    Should I be looking at AQ the same AK in this kind of poistion? I would shove comfortably with AK but I'm not as comfortable with AQ. Flawed thinking on my part I suppose.

    But this is why I posted.

    Also according to your calculations we still have a playable stack at 25bbs. No? I mean most tourneys when you run deep you are around 20 ish bbs.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    @Jules Calling is an option, but there is alot of uncertainty post flop & were usually just burning up 10% of our already awkward sized stack pre after we miss over 2/3 of time and have to fold if anyone breathes on the pot post flop.

    20-30BB is not "playable" as much as it's good for restealing and opening if folded to in LP, etc. True BB as I explained also make these shorter and more desperate to chip up than first appears. We want a 35BB+ stack so we can be opening more ruthlessly.
  • JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 440 ✭✭✭
    @Monad Yea I don't like calling here because of that reason. When I said playable I did mean using our stack to open in LP etc. I really didn't feel like my hand was strong enough against the action I had seen to put it in. This is something I need to work on. Always a tricky spot for me around 20-25 bbs. Not sure what I would be waiting for in a spot like this.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    @Jules The possibility for increasing our stack by 20% without showdown, and have backup w/ a strong hand in case villain calls as wide as AJ, KQ, 77, etc. (vs. if we were doing this more haphazardly w/ a hand like A6s, etc.), is not to be understated either. It would get us close to being able to open wide from all over table if other dynamics align as well.

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