AcKs open shove post flop

Trey GTrey G Red Chipper Posts: 23
edited February 2017 in Tournament Poker Hands
Game: MTT
Effective stack size: 3200
Blinds - 50/100

Hero: :Ac:Ks
V: MP+2 effective stack ~1800
Hero opens from CO to 350 into pot of 2 limpers, three callers.

Flop: :9c:7c:3c

check, V shoves for 1400, fold, Hero calls, BTN folds.

I wasn't getting quite the odds I wanted but with two overs and the :Ac I felt like I could call. I felt like it was a spot where the opponent only had about 14BB left and he could be shoving with a lot in this spot. Small flushes, top pair 10c-Kc

Am I calling to wide here?


  • david wdavid w Red Chipper Posts: 54 ✭✭
    I'm not a big fan of calling here. With a player still to act this is a shove or fold. Also I like shoving on the short stack way more then calling.

    I think this is close. I think risking big edges for small edges is short sited. I also think taking the worst of it (60 - 40) is worth considering when you gain a huge edge when your 40% comes through.

    So look where you would be with folding, calling and winning, calling when losing.

    I'm not sure if this is clear.
  • david wdavid w Red Chipper Posts: 54 ✭✭
    Lauren wrote: »
    it is a little difficult to follow the action from how you have it described.... but, yes, not a good call... i think your main mistake is in your raise size. if there were 2 limpers ahead of you there was 350 in the pot when it got to you (limps + blinds), add your 100 call to pot before calculating your raise size..... so pot is 450..... i think a raise to 700 or 800 is appropriate here.... with a plan of calling if you get shoved on..... your tiny raise gives odds for all kinds of garbage that hit this flop to call you.....

    I cannot accurately express how strongly I disagree with the preflop raise size suggested here with the information provided by the OP. 800 is 25% of Hero's stack! The correct play for the 18 BB stack is push or fold. Betting small gives the illusion of fold equity betting that large removes that illusion.

    Whiffing the flop means you may have to fold AK. Anytime you put 25% of your stack in and fold should make you question your strategy and is a strong indicator of a very large mistake.

    Shoving 38 BB would be far better advise.

  • david wdavid w Red Chipper Posts: 54 ✭✭
    Just to be clear. It's my understanding that Villain has an 18 BB stack. Villain should not call Hero's raise. He should fold or shove. The only reason that I think a call may be correct with his stack size is to try a stop and go.

    From what I read, Hero has a 32 BB stack or covers the other players covered. I agree getting all in pre with AK and a 32 BB is an excellent out come. Where I take issue with your analysis is when you see the flop after putting 25%... Obviously if the only caller was the 18 BB stack you should never fold pre or post. By never I mean almost always. And if it were somehow correct to fold post fop after putting 50% of the effective stacks in pre flop maybe revisiting how you played the hand would be worthwhile. ;)

    The advise you post would be good advise under different conditions. Namely stack sizes.

    I'm not here to win arguments an I appreciate aposing views. I truly believe I am correct and I do not think it's close. If I'm missing something please help me better understand.

  • Trey GTrey G Red Chipper Posts: 23
    Thank you both for your thoughts. I really appreciate hearing both perspectives. I did have 32BB and Villian had ~18BB.

    My night had been very awkward, I got to the game late right before the first break or last opportunity to buy-in. This was my third hand and I had raised my first two hands with 10s, A-Js, my thought process in Bet sizing was that I had gone to show down with the other two hands and it wouldn't be hard for someone to remember what my raises were because I had only been at the table for ~20 mins. My 350 raise was in an attempt to not narrow my range to opposing players. David, I understand the 60/40 edges part and will absolutely employ that next time on the table. Another mistake I feel like I made in this hand is trying to assign a range post flop instead of preflop. If I would have thought about the opponents range I think I would have assigned middle suited connectors which hits that board in a lot of ways and I probably feel a little better about getting away from this.

    V: :9d:7d

    Turn is :Ad

    River is :2s

    V wins with his flopped two pair
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017
    If I'm reading the action correctly, this person donk-shoved in to you on the flop for about a pot-sized bet? And we have two overs & the NFD? Even if only the FD is live we're at 36% to make our hand, and we only need around 33% based on the pot odds we're being laid, so it's a call. If we even count one of our overcard outs as potentially live (i.e. villain has Tc9x, 8c9x, etc.), then its a slam dunk call.

    It's not a great spot but it's +EV to get it in and we have a shot at an absolutely dominant stack that will give us all sorts of options/utility moving forward.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your posts will be clearer if you correctly use the term Effective Stack or simply list player stack sizes.
  • Trey GTrey G Red Chipper Posts: 23
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Your posts will be clearer if you correctly use the term Effective Stack or simply list player stack sizes.

    Thank you. It is kind of ironic, I was just (minutes before) explaining to my wife that I misunderstood the term "effective stack" and have been watching/reading SPR videos most of the afternoon.
  • Matt BerkeyMatt Berkey Red Chipper, RCP Coach Posts: 278 ✭✭✭

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