Top 5 Traits Of The VERY BEST Poker Players In The World (Doug Polk video)

DanDan Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
Hey all,

I watched Doug Polk's latest video this morning, Top 5 Traits Of The VERY BEST Poker Players In The World, and thought it was really good; I figured some of you here might like it, too.

I especially liked what he had to say on the topics of dedication and discipline.

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Comments

  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 308 ✭✭✭
    Doug is wrong. The main trait of the best players in the world is that they are neural networks.

    As for live no-limit games, which are incompatible with neural networks, I like this list by DGAF (although it seems incomplete to me):
    in order to crush live nl you have to be:

    1. perceptive
    2. resilient
    3. disciplined (wrt tilt)
    4. combative/always willing to compete
    5. social
    6. sly
    7. gambly (ok with huge wagers/swings)

    Source: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/view-bart-hanson-not-very-good-1461947/index3.html#post44116412
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    porter wrote: »
    Doug is wrong. The main trait of the best players in the world is that they are neural networks.

    As for live no-limit games, which are incompatible with neural networks, I like this list by DGAF (although it seems incomplete to me):
    in order to crush live nl you have to be:

    1. perceptive
    2. resilient
    3. disciplined (wrt tilt)
    4. combative/always willing to compete
    5. social
    6. sly
    7. gambly (ok with huge wagers/swings)

    Source: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/view-bart-hanson-not-very-good-1461947/index3.html#post44116412

    Billy is right
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 308 ✭✭✭
    porter wrote: »
    Doug is wrong. The main trait of the best players in the world is that they are neural networks.

    As for live no-limit games, which are incompatible with neural networks, I like this list by DGAF (although it seems incomplete to me):
    in order to crush live nl you have to be:

    1. perceptive
    2. resilient
    3. disciplined (wrt tilt)
    4. combative/always willing to compete
    5. social
    6. sly
    7. gambly (ok with huge wagers/swings)

    Source: xxxxxxx

    Revised link for source because 2+2's web address system is weird.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭
    porter wrote: »
    Doug is wrong. The main trait of the best players in the world is that they are neural networks.

    As for live no-limit games, which are incompatible with neural networks, I like this list by DGAF (although it seems incomplete to me):
    in order to crush live nl you have to be:

    1. perceptive
    2. resilient
    3. disciplined (wrt tilt)
    4. combative/always willing to compete
    5. social
    6. sly
    7. gambly (ok with huge wagers/swings)

    Source: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/view-bart-hanson-not-very-good-1461947/index3.html#post44116412

    If you think the VERY BEST are live cash grinders I won't disagree
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 308 ✭✭✭
    @kenaces Do you think tournament players are better? Because that would surprise me.
  • JonasJonas Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    Yeah, the list is missing a few things:

    8. Mental acuity - can't let lifestyle choices or health affect a thinking game
    9. Sunglasses.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭
    porter wrote: »
    @kenaces Do you think tournament players are better? Because that would surprise me.

    Better at what?

    To me the best of the best guys are the ones who consistently beat strong competition (ie HSNL online cash guys). I am guessing this is the angle that Doug used to think about his list.

    I like DGAF's post since these days I am live poker grinder but I don't think he is anywhere the VERY BEST since I think he quit poker right?
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 308 ✭✭✭
    porter wrote: »
    Doug is wrong. The main trait of the best players in the world is that they are neural networks.
    kenaces wrote: »
    If you think the VERY BEST are live cash grinders I won't disagree
    porter wrote: »
    @kenaces Do you think tournament players are better? Because that would surprise me.
    kenaces wrote: »
    Better at what?

    To me the best of the best guys are the ones who consistently beat strong competition (ie HSNL online cash guys). I am guessing this is the angle that Doug used to think about his list.

    I like DGAF's post since these days I am live poker grinder but I don't think he is anywhere the VERY BEST since I think he quit poker right?

    I was semi-joking, but that's why I said the best players are neural networks. They have beaten the strong competition. But if you're a human, why would you choose to consistently play strong competition?

    And no one is claiming that DGAF is/was the very best. I said that I prefer his list of traits. I'm guessing that Doug didn't put much effort into his list (e.g. his argument re: natural ability, and separating natural ability from intelligence, and money management and discipline).
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    kenaces wrote: »
    porter wrote: »
    @kenaces Do you think tournament players are better? Because that would surprise me.

    Better at what?

    To me the best of the best guys are the ones who consistently beat strong competition (ie HSNL online cash guys). I am guessing this is the angle that Doug used to think about his list.

    I like DGAF's post since these days I am live poker grinder but I don't think he is anywhere the VERY BEST since I think he quit poker right?

    So the best 100BB online poker players can beat the best live uncapped live players in that arena? I wouldn't take that as a given at all.

    I would take Berkey live at 500BBs over any online 100BB specialist in the live arena uncapped. And this happens a lot.

    There a niche markets and people are specialist.
  • ZENIZENZENIZEN Red Chipper Posts: 166 ✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Live doesn't take a narrow focused skill set . It takes a wide range of various skills ....100 BB is by no means deep especially live . 5 buyins deep vs Berkey ?2udgs6jjv5gb.jpg
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Just saying... HSNL online doesn't necessarily mean you can beat everyone.
    They are obviously very good. But don't just count out the best deep stack live players in the world.

    I would take Billy Live 500BBdeep at 3am short handed versus many of the best 100BB online players.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,979 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Always great when the forum front of video subscription service takes on the TOP X clickbait of a Youtube channel. WHO WILL WIN???
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭
    porter wrote: »
    I was semi-joking, but that's why I said the best players are neural networks. They have beaten the strong competition. But if you're a human, why would you choose to consistently play strong competition?

    And no one is claiming that DGAF is/was the very best. I said that I prefer his list of traits. I'm guessing that Doug didn't put much effort into his list (e.g. his argument re: natural ability, and separating natural ability from intelligence, and money management and discipline).

    Well the best bots are beating HU LHE and NLH but once you add players to the game they aren't there yet

    Like I said I likes the DGAF post - only saying that so of it is only relevant to live poker
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭
    There a niche markets and people are specialist.

    I agree with this to some extent but I think you might be under appreciating how tough even 1K 6m NLH is these days and how good guys who crush these games are

    I think the experienced live guy gains back some edge due to "live play experience" more than super deep stacks as online games can also be deep stacked.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭
    Just saying... HSNL online doesn't necessarily mean you can beat everyone.

    Not what I am saying. My point is that you have to consider guys who beat toughest lineups over big number of hands as SOME of the very best. This is of course easy to do in the online world as you can see you is winning/losing, how much, and over how many hands. You can't do this with live cash game players.

    I am not hating on live players especially since I am one of them :)

  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Online players are great at what they specialize in. 100BB 6max or HU play.

    I think they are a dog in very deep live games against the best in that arena.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Online stacks never get as deep as live. That's the difference. How often are online players 1000BB deep effective?

    This happens all the time in uncapped games. Playing these games are much different than 100BB or even 200BB play.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Online you can play like a bot because you'll see the same spot over and over again for 100BB and it's a rinse and repeat process.

    Live this it is not the case. When you play 1000 big blind pot and you are wrong, it's not going to repeat itself the next time fire up a session.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭
    Online players are great at what they specialize in. 100BB 6max or HU play.

    I think they are a dog in very deep live games against the best in that arena.


    I am also not really talking about online players in general I am thinking about the guys who are elite online players. There is a very long list of strong online guys who have transitioned to live games pretty well.

    I can see an argument that online guys have hard time adjusting to pace of game, lack of live instincts and these things take some time/talent/practice to develop. I don't get why you think when the game gets deeper that it has such a huge impact. It only changes game tree in that it allows for a few more spots to overbet, more 3Bing, and maybe more multi-way pots. I feel like these elite online guys are very well practice with all of this except the multiway pots. what am I missing?


  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    You have a fondness for online so I'll explain in that thought process.
    Your argument is like saying a Hyper Turbo SnG specialist will be great at 100BB cash poker because it's only a little different in the game tree.
    Or a HU SnG player can transition into 6max because the game tree is only a different.

    You would never say these things because you know how different these games are.

    But for some reason you think you can say it for Live Uncapped FullRing with no stats.

    The mistakes made at 1000BBs are grand. You should attempt to rail or play if you can in some highstakes live games.
    It's not a bet here or there. You're talking about multiple buyin mistakes in one bet. It's a completely different game that PIO or whatever other program cannot solve because GTO isn't designed to solve such deep games with this many players.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    I have players who have come to me for coaching because they want to transition to Live from Online. Supernovas who play Highstakes Zoom. As you know, that pool is not soft.

    They are way better than I am in game theory. And if the winner of the poker game was determined through a test in GTO, they would win every time.

    But they are leaving piles of money on the table in Live super deep highstakes games because they can't exploit. And also because they aren't used to making decisions for all these big blinds. They don't know where to even begin to exploit because their style is defensive and not offensive as you know.

    The programs they use as a crutch no longer can help at these depths. PIO, PT4, etc

    So who is better at poker?
    This person who beats 500 Zoom or me?
    IMO it's a draw.

    If I went to his arena, I would get slaughtered and would need his help. But in my arena, I'm the best and they'll need my help.

    I think online poker is dying anyway.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭
    You have a fondness for online so I'll explain in that thought process.
    Your argument is like saying a Hyper Turbo SnG specialist will be great at 100BB cash poker because it's only a little different in the game tree.
    Or a HU SnG player can transition into 6max because the game tree is only a different.

    You would never say these things because you know how different these games are.

    100% agree

    I have a fondness for both online and live :)

    But for some reason you think you can say it for Live Uncapped FullRing with no stats.

    The mistakes made at 1000BBs are grand. You should attempt to rail or play if you can in some highstakes live games.
    It's not a bet here or there. You're talking about multiple buyin mistakes in one bet. It's a completely different game that PIO or whatever other program cannot solve because GTO isn't designed to solve such deep games with this many players.

    Fair point that knowing how to use HUD is non factor in live poker.

    I agree that deep games allow for big mistakes just don't get why you think these super elite online 6m guys are going to make too many big mistakes?

    Solvers have no problem with stack depth but at least for now they don't work on multi-way spots.

    The more I type/think about challenge for online 6m guys moving to live game - I am realizing that I think the biggest problem would be their lack of practice playing the super common live mult-way pot since most pot in online 6m are HU.

    I guess I just think that Live NLH and online 6m NLH are pretty close. Maybe I have this opinion because I have always played both so I see the game through that filter. In my own experience playing deep 5/10NLH there isn't that much overbetting(except vs fish), and 200bb+ stacks rarely go in reg v reg. This is why I guess I am thinking the depth is less of a factor.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    kenaces wrote: »


    There is a very long list of strong online guys who have transitioned to live games pretty well.

    Who?
    Who has trasitioned from online to live high-stakes cash and crushed it?

    Only Andrew Robl.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭
    In some ways nobody knows - right?

    Cates, Galfond, Rast, Haxton, Deeb maybe? But even in these cases who the hell really know, and live nosebleed are at least 1/2 about getting into the game right? and of course there is a huge sample size problem even if people in the know see who is winning and losing

    If i expand your question to live high roller and super high roller MTT there are many of crushers who came from online world with no problems.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Tournaments are different. Because the game translates. Stacks are short in both arenas. Tournaments are the same game.

    The list is super small in terms of NL Cash:

    Rast doesn't play NL Cash much. The times he's played in the Big Game in Ivey's toom he's lost and bought in for the min multiple times. He's a crusher in Mix Games at Bellagio.

    Galfond plays the Big Bet Mix game in Ivey's room. Also not NL.

    IKE has done well in Macau so I can give you that one.

    Deeb doesn't play No Limit Hold 'Em outside of Poker Night in America. He plays Mix.

    My point is, the list is super small and probably only includes IKE and Andrew Robl and maybe a only handful of others.

    I think you are overestimating their ability or underestimating the differences between the games.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭
    Tournaments are different. Because the game translates. Stacks are short in both arenas. Tournaments are the same game.

    The list is super small in terms of NL Cash:

    Rast doesn't play NL Cash much. The times he's played in the Big Game in Ivey's toom he's lost and bought in for the min multiple times. He's a crusher in Mix Games at Bellagio.

    Galfond plays the Big Bet Mix game in Ivey's room. Also not NL.

    IKE has done well in Macau so I can give you that one.

    Deeb doesn't play No Limit Hold 'Em outside of Poker Night in America. He plays Mix.

    My point is, the list is super small and probably only includes IKE and Andrew Robl and maybe a only handful of others.

    I was not thinking of only NLH and only throwing out of few names off the top of mind. And I do agree that any list of elite players is by definition going to be very short.
    I think you are overestimating their ability or underestimating the differences between the games.

    I don't really know what to think of anyone's abilities in nosebleed live cash since I don't play or have any chance to observe the results in these games. Of course there is always the rumor mill :) I suspect there is a mix of wizards and luckboxes(good players running significantly over EV) in these games.

    Yes, I remain unconvinced about the HUGE difference in these game. I think the difference are much smaller/subtle. Like I said before this is from my biased view as someone who has play tons of live and online MSNL.

    I am happy to agree to disagree, and get back to original point of this thread - what do you think are the top 5 traits to excel at live NLH?
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Everything Billy says in his thread about Live NL is true.
  • Matt BerkeyMatt Berkey Red Chipper, RCP Coach Posts: 278 ✭✭✭
    Obviously, I'm biased here and I don't think we're at all comparing apples to apples. I think the point that is getting lost is that skill sets don't necessarily translate and motivation in order to make up the gap/overcome ego is lacking. Online elite aren't motivated (yet) to move away from that realm, nor to change their school of thought. Same applies to the live guy. I don't think many would challenge my ability in live cash, but if I weren't so forthright about the holes in my game online your argument would imply that I should be able to step in that realm at the highest stakes and compete. This is what Chin is challenging. The elite nosebleed online guys can't just challenge elite nosebleed live guys, and vise versa.

    To compare a little more apples to apples and bring this convo full circle, Doug Polk said himself that the amount of work it would take for him to transition from HS HUNL to HS 6max and compete w/RedBaron simply wouldn't be worth his time. If he can't move laterally to a comparable game in his own environment, what makes you think he could suddenly crush in a $100/$200 $25k min game?
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭
    Obviously, I'm biased here and I don't think we're at all comparing apples to apples. I think the point that is getting lost is that skill sets don't necessarily translate and motivation in order to make up the gap/overcome ego is lacking. Online elite aren't motivated (yet) to move away from that realm, nor to change their school of thought. Same applies to the live guy. I don't think many would challenge my ability in live cash, but if I weren't so forthright about the holes in my game online your argument would imply that I should be able to step in that realm at the highest stakes and compete. This is what Chin is challenging. The elite nosebleed online guys can't just challenge elite nosebleed live guys, and vise versa.

    To compare a little more apples to apples and bring this convo full circle, Doug Polk said himself that the amount of work it would take for him to transition from HS HUNL to HS 6max and compete w/RedBaron simply wouldn't be worth his time. If he can't move laterally to a comparable game in his own environment, what makes you think he could suddenly crush in a $100/$200 $25k min game?

    I agree if you are crushing your game there isn't much reason to try to switch to different game. What is the Chin challenge?

    I don't think Doug or anyone else could suddenly crush nosebleed live cash and I suspect the opposite is also true(live HSNL>onlineHSNL). My original thought which I have fail to explain well is: If you come from online(doug) you will have a different list of top 5 traits than if you come from live(DGAF). Then I said this: "To me the best of the best guys are the ones who consistently beat strong competition (ie HSNL online cash guys). I am guessing this is the angle that Doug used to think about his list." and the thread became live vs online debate which is fine but I am more interested in what you think about what it takes to go from good to great?

    Since I learn to be good at poker while grinding online cash and had no problem transitioning to live cash after black friday I am looking through that lens. So for me at the MSNL level skill gap between MSNL online and live is HUGE. Now since I don't have direct experience with nosebleeds live or online I am would not be surprised to be wrong, but I am having hard time seeing why you guys think going from online>live deep is bigger adjustment than I do.

    Is it the online guy will lack "live reads/intuition/tells?
    Does 500bb change the lines/bet sizes that much? Is there really that much over betting? In position 3Bing? So many more multiway spots?

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