Interesting spot for my tourney life.

tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 290 ✭✭
Level 4, 20 minute levels, 50 player tourney.

Blinds 200-400. One limper (my read on him - not terrible but not very good either), I raise to 2000 with AQo. He calls, we are heads up. I have 15000 behind and he has me covered.

Flop AKT rainbow. Villain shoves. My call would be all in.


Comments

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pots 4600
    Villain donk jams 15k?

    Easy fold?

    Also don't like the 5x over a limper. Maybe raise to 1500 to up?

    Also we know nothing about villain or your read.
  • PondyPondy Red Chipper Posts: 150 ✭✭
    Snap call for me. This is 37 BB poker and you have TPTK. What better hand do you want to call in such shallow game?

    Besides: What value hands does villain donk shove? If he is terrible, he might do silly things like shoving with close to the nuts, but 99% of the players on this planet would not donk shove a set or a straight on a rainbow board unless there were some dynamic between him and you. If there were a flush draw out there, then some players would do just that, although even then it would be silly.

    To me this looks like a total bluff just in the hope that you either whiffed the flop or you fold an Ace. I am absolutely never folding in this spot.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭✭
    Pondy wrote: »
    Snap call for me. This is 37 BB poker and you have TPTK. What better hand do you want to call in such shallow game?

    Besides: What value hands does villain donk shove? If he is terrible, he might do silly things like shoving with close to the nuts, but 99% of the players on this planet would not donk shove a set or a straight on a rainbow board unless there were some dynamic between him and you. If there were a flush draw out there, then some players would do just that, although even then it would be silly.

    To me this looks like a total bluff just in the hope that you either whiffed the flop or you fold an Ace. I am absolutely never folding in this spot.

    We have roughly 32BB left if we fold on the flop. This isn't a cash game where we can just reload if we lose the hand. 32BB in a tourney means that we can pick a better spot than this to get it in. Fold.
  • PondyPondy Red Chipper Posts: 150 ✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    We have roughly 32BB left if we fold on the flop. This isn't a cash game where we can just reload if we lose the hand. 32BB in a tourney means that we can pick a better spot than this to get it in. Fold.

    Really? So I can just donk shove any two cards in this spot against you and you will fold everything except a straight here?
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭✭
    Pondy wrote: »
    Ninjah wrote: »
    We have roughly 32BB left if we fold on the flop. This isn't a cash game where we can just reload if we lose the hand. 32BB in a tourney means that we can pick a better spot than this to get it in. Fold.

    Really? So I can just donk shove any two cards in this spot against you and you will fold everything except a straight here?

    AQ is much stronger on a Q72r than AKT. So no, I'm not always folding vs. this shove. I'm confident that any tournament player would advise waiting on a different spot.
  • PondyPondy Red Chipper Posts: 150 ✭✭
    Ok, so let's dissect this a bit. What range do we assign someone who is "not terrible but not very good either" and limp-calls in a shallow stacked situation? I'd say lots of suited connectors, 22-TT, AXs, possibly some broadways. He might get tricky with JJ-AA, so let's say all pocket pairs.

    Now the flop comes AKTr. What is a legitimate donking range here? I'd say there is none. The board is not overly scary and with 32BB behind, it is not too difficult to get stacks inside. If someone (and I mean both good and bad players) has AK, AT, KT, QJ, AA, KK, TT, he will almost always check to the preflop aggressor, who will most likely cbet this board. And if he doesn't cbet? Well, then they will just bet the turn and still get stacks inside if he has anything.

    A donk shove here looks like a hand that doesn't want to get called. Now this could be a weak A, a K, a T or just any sort of nonsense. Of course someone could get tricky and take this line with a big line because it looks bluffy, but he would lose so much value. On balance, this makes it a call for me.

    Btw: We don't know if we are close to the bubble (I assume we are not), so at this point, we have to treat it more like a cash game because ICM doesn't really apply in the early stages yet.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    1) Can you still rebuy?

    2) Are you willing to rebuy?

    3) Are starting chip stacks 10,000?
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pondy wrote: »
    Ok, so let's dissect this a bit. What range do we assign someone who is "not terrible but not very good either" and limp-calls in a shallow stacked situation? I'd say lots of suited connectors, 22-TT, AXs, possibly some broadways. He might get tricky with JJ-AA, so let's say all pocket pairs.

    Now the flop comes AKTr. What is a legitimate donking range here?
    I'm with the Jokers here... it's a fold.

    I'm reading OP's description of limper as being a passive, rec player.
    These guys typically don't shove without something they think is the nuts.

    What hands can V have?
    AA, KK, TT, AK, AT, QJ, KT...
    all that have us smoked.

    What hands do we beat or tie?
    AQ, AJ, QQ, JJ.

    I also agree that the 5X raise is bad... which makes it more likely that V has a strong hand since it's so obvious that this board should smack our range in the face!

    I have yet to see a guy oop overshove donk bet wwith something like 22-99 on this board or A2-A9.

    If we're behind, we've got 4-7 outs.
    Not worth it for your tourney life....
    unless you have specific info that this guy is shoving with any Ace or King.
  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 290 ✭✭
    1) Can you still rebuy?

    2) Are you willing to rebuy?

    3) Are starting chip stacks 10,000?

    Nope/<n/a>/18000.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I mean these guys do shit that makes no sense, but can a tournament player please break down why someone would donk shove a pat hand here?
  • BotswanaNickBotswanaNick Red Chipper Posts: 696 ✭✭✭
    Unlike most others apparently are, I am a bit torn and feel like this is pretty close. It is a huge and very unusual shove, so its hard to really range it very well. On the one hand, it seems a weird and unlikely way for someone to play any hand that beats us (I feel like bottom two pair or t+b pair most likely), but also on the rainbow board hard to think of draws that would do it either (perhaps something like KQ/KJ?). I feel like the straight or sets are just so so unlikely (I find that even if absolute value is similar, players will much more often do something like this with two pair than with the stone cold nuts on a rainbow flop). I'm worried he just has a worse A that doesn't know what else to do. I think I'm reluctantly folding but I'm certainly making a big note of this play and trying to convince him to show me his hand.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    I mean these guys do shit that makes no sense, but can a tournament player please break down why someone would donk shove a pat hand here?

    The first part of your post is why we have to include all possible hands here and not discounting certain hands due to the expectation of a 3-bet. I play these low buy-in live tourneys and I've seen guys limp/call AK, KK and TT so I think those are all in play here. It would be nice if we had more info on Villain. I think we also have to account for the possibility of shifting Villain's calling range pre towards Broadways with our abnormally large raise size preflop. If I'm assigning him a range, I think we are looking at TT, KK, AK, KT, AT, and all pair+draw combos. I also think we have to include some Ax combos here that are afraid of straight draws (maybe A8s+?). What I wouldn't expect is for Villain to do this with an underpair.
  • BotswanaNickBotswanaNick Red Chipper Posts: 696 ✭✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    The first part of your post is why we have to include all possible hands here and not discounting certain hands due to the expectation of a 3-bet. I play these low buy-in live tourneys and I've seen guys limp/call AK, KK and TT so I think those are all in play here.

    While I agree you shouldn't completely exclude these hands from villain's range, I would argue you still need to heavily discount these combos. Do donkament players sometimes limp/call with these hands? Sure, but even bad players more often open raise or limp/raise in this situation. When you combine this discounting with the strangeness of open shipping the flop, I think you can remove all but 1 or 2 combos of sets here. The problem is, its hard to come up with combos that we are beating either (ie this is just an unusual line all around).

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yes, I understand that opponent will show up with these hands sometimes. My question is, what would motivate a player to overbet shove any of them?
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭✭
    If we assign a range of KK-TT,AKo-ATo,KQo-KTo,QJo-QTo,JTo,AKs-A8s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs for Villain, we have 58% equity. So (.58*19600) - (.42*17000) = +4228 ChipEV. I agree that it feels weird to assign Villain this type of range based upon his actions but I just don't see any way he does this without at least some sort of equity (and combined with my experience of what I've witnessed in these tournaments). In a tournament, 32bb (which is what we are left with if we fold when he shoves) is plenty of room to maneuver and be patient. I don't think it is worth the risk of our tourney life for 4k in chips at this particular point of the tourney.
  • BotswanaNickBotswanaNick Red Chipper Posts: 696 ✭✭✭
    One problem with this spot is that many bad players will be completely unbalanced for taking this line. The problem is, we don't know in which direction they are unbalanced. There are some players that love doing this with big hands because they've learned people won't believe them, and others that will do it with bad A's or KJ type hands because they don't want to play any post-flop poker, but few players that will do it with both types of hands. That is why it is so hard for me even try to come up with a range and calculating equity from it. We really need to try to think which of these two player types are more common or more likely.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    taglius wrote: »
    1) Can you still rebuy?

    2) Are you willing to rebuy?

    3) Are starting chip stacks 10,000?

    Nope/<n/a>/18000.

    Then I'd likely fold. At this point, your hand is more likely a bluff-catcher than anything else.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    yes, I understand that opponent will show up with these hands sometimes. My question is, what would motivate a player to overbet shove any of them?

    there's a reason these tournaments are often referred to as "donkaments"...
    why is he shoving?
    cuz he's got the nuts!
    he want's to get paid!

    If you consider range advantage... which is obviously in Hero's favor, the limp-call-shover has to figure that Hero is going to have something that hits this board...

    even if he doesn't know it's called "range advantage".... he's going to be like all the rest of the rec/"fun" players who think that Hero's got at least AK... cuz everybody puts their opponent on AK... so l-c-s is not trying to bluff... he's value betting... BUT... he's making it look bluffy so he can win a big pot!

    Remember that 5-or-6-year-old that was pestering you... and you swatted him?
    He wasn't looking for a swat. He was looking for attention.
    He could have easily been friendly and helpful to you, to gain your attention.
    But did he do that?
    Nope.
    Instead, he shoved all in.
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 790 ✭✭✭
    Villain shoved ~15000 effective to win ~5000, so from a Game Theoretic perspective you would need to call more than about 25% to prevent your opponent being able to profitably shove any two cards.

    Hero likely has ~30-50 better hands than AQo in his range, depending on how wide he is opening (4-16 straights, 9 sets, 18-27 two pairs). Unless he's very tight AQo will be in the top 25% of hands even on this board that is very strong for hero's range. Further, it has a blocker to the nuts. I expect folding this hand here is exploitable/exploitative.

    In my experience the donk shove is often a good made hand that is afraid of giving free cards to the draws. In this case there are plenty of pair + draws with showdown value that might check behind, or sets that might boat up. If you're minimising "regret" rather than maximising EV, maybe it starts to make more sense.
  • chimerachimera Red Chipper Posts: 96 ✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Call, TPTK and a gunshot to the nuts. If he has a nutted hand why blast you out of the pot.
  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    I'm inclined to believe he's got more Ax than most are currently giving him credit for. Sure we block combos and raised large pre, but when he's limp/calling he's still going to have a potential range of A7o+ A4s+ and sometimes even wider. Bad players love to donk their top pairs they may feel are vulnerable, which all are here. I think we can discount a lot of his value range that's currently beating us as he would want more action with them and donk smaller or check/raise, and a lot of draws that have significant equity as he wants to call and hit his draw.

    I think it's perfectly reasonable to treat him and hand read him as a purely recreational player.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭

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