A legacy of bluffs

jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
So I feel like I flood the live poker hands with a ton of hands. I've really ramped up my aggression, and as such as find myself bluffing a lot. Now I'm not here to post the bluffs gone good (I may throw in a few gems in for a pat on the back). I'm here to post the bluffs gone bad. I always get something from people looking and critiquing. Maybe it could be a mistake to tell you that they called or not. I'll let you decide. Without further ado let's get into it.


$2-5 Hero (1.1k) Hero has been playing pretty straight forward, hasn't gotten caught bluffing too much, shown down a lot of value, made 2 correct hero folds face up (this has let him get some bluffs through, especially a 4-bet 52o which...I showed). Playing a balanced game at this point of about 50/50 bluff to value ratio. Really happy with my session so far. V1 is aggressive but thinking player. Earlier stacked him as he 4-bet jammed on me when I had AA. Like's his river over-bets. Keep topping off to the max amount. I think at this point he's at like...$750-$900.


1 limper V opens to $15 in the CO hero in SB with :5D::5C: , calls. I don't wanna get into a 3-bet 4-bet battle with this guy with this hand because he will take it there. Hand plays nice out of the SB, bb folds limper calls.


Pot $50~


Flop is :9s:9c:8d . Checks to V he bet's $25. I call, I don't think he necessarily even hit this board. I'm not folding yet. Limper folds.


Pot $100.


Turn is :KC: . I check he bet's $40, seems weak, and I decide it's time to put a move on this guy. I min-raise to $80. He sits think for a while but I get the sense he doesn't like it. He calls. So at this point I'm trying to rep the 9 that slow played the flop, or perhaps a KQ, KJ hand that floated the flop. I really don't think he's that strong, I put him on maybe J10, J8, some type of 8x hand. He could have also picked up a flush draw. The plan on the river against a non-straight non flush completion is to go for a medium 1/2-2/3rd pot "value" bet such as one's I've been putting in a lot this session. He got punished for it earlier vs me, hoping he remembers I don't "bluff" on rivers for big money.


River $260.


:4S: I bet $135. He tanks and tank and tanks. Count's out raising chips and looks at me to see if I look concerned. I don't. I think he will toss it. He's agonizing at this point, clearly not raising. He put's together his $130 and calls. I say nice hand show he tables :8C::6C: . I compliment him on the call and ask why he called. His reasoning was "bro if you had the 9, there's no way you raise me on the turn. As aggressive as I've been you'd allow me to just barrel away." I didn't offer my thoughts of...I would 100% min to $100 raise you on turn as now you can call with any king, any straight or flush draw ect. But that's neither here nor there. (fun fact an orbit later I overbet him on the river with :AC: : :Td flop :As:3s:5c run out :AH::7D: board pot was $195 I bet $265 he snaps me I scoop...bluff paid in full).

Thoughts? Sound line? Maybe just call and check-raise the river? I always think to myself "whenever they have to tank and tank and end up calling...it wasn't a bad bluff." If I put them in tough spots, I think I am doing my job.
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Comments

  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    @jfarrow13 definitely keep posting. The forums are much better for it. I would leave out the results. It's better for everyone if the outcome is unknown.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There will be all sorts of comments on your line here - especially your sizing on the turn - but what is most essential here is to understand that you are choosing the rep a card that belongs to the PFR. Your read may allow a deviation, but getting the basics right is your best long-term strategy.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    @persuadeo given the $15 PFR and his position, can't I have plenty of 9's? What about KQ KJ ect. that float the flop? I mean I would certainty defend $15 deep with 910s, 98s, 97s 9Js ect. Sure if $15 screams SC, S1+2G, weak Ax, K7s ect opens he has plenty of 9's, but I don't only have PP, weak broadways, Ax Kx s hands.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sure, you can.

    But in reality you don't have a lot of kings or nines. It's hard to flop trips and you can't just rep them any time you want. You do have lots of other hands in your range. You're even arguing that you're floating KJ - which means you're floating A10 and god knows what else. That's why to make something work, to really sell a bluff, all components have fall into place. Even more importantly, having a king yourself doesn't really make that much sense because if you did have a king, you'd more likely call.

    Both of which bring us right to the min raise, the next part of the story. You aren't going to min raise a king that often- it makes zero sense. At that point, it's WAWB and all you accomplish is folding out air by raising KQ. As for a nine, you will want to be playing for stacks - don't forget how deep you are - which means your raising will become polarized. You'll mimic a bluff or have it with larger sizings. Are you min raising full houses now? No. Min raising creates so many theoretical problems, in other words, it becomes not worth the deviation. And among those problems, you will get calls you don't want simply because of price.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    Just remove min raising from you game and you will be a better player :)

    It is a decent board to bluff raise the turn on vs aggressive double barrel guys but most players who have trips are going to raise bigger to "protect" 67,JT, and FDs. It also sucks to be bluffing with 2 outs
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    @persuadeo was there any line here which made sense which would have been more credible, or more likely to get him off this hand? Check call flop, check, call turn? If I check river I think he might even check it back and just take his showdown. Check...smash turn? Lead turn? It just feels like I'd be on some draw or something.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Next one. $2-5 hero ($650~) hasn't shown down one hand except trips out of the SB which he just check called flop, checked turn checked river hoping to induce something. V is an old Asian man who has made some superrrrrrr questionable flop sizing raises, but other than that seems to play fit or fold. (by this I mean $50 with AJo and $75 with :AD: : :Td ).


    Hero UTG :Ks:Td . Hero limps. So a few limps were getting through this game, the plan was to just limp fold to any realistic raise. It's $5. Folds around to V-? who raises to $20 in HJ, BU calls, fold V-1 in BB calls hero...gets the idea. He limped UTG. How many times have we seen people limp smash premium UTG? He's going for it. 3-bets to $85. V-? tanks and folds folds to BB who calls. V-1 loves his suited hands and PP, and I'm guessing that's what he's going for. But no matter what I'm taking my story far, I've made the decision unless he leads into me on the flop.


    Pot $210~

    Flop :QS::JC::4H: . V-1 checks hero bets $135 takes it down. Super favorable flop, double ended, I'm going for it. The question to ask is....decent line and play or fancy play syndrome that just didn't blow up in my face?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    @persuadeo was there any line here which made sense which would have been more credible, or more likely to get him off this hand? Check call flop, check, call turn? If I check river I think he might even check it back and just take his showdown. Check...smash turn? Lead turn? It just feels like I'd be on some draw or something.

    How do you play "real" trips? Anyway, it's in my post: polarizing line/sizing, not this tiny, "I'm pricing you in and daring you to call me so how can I be bluffing" stuff. If you are going for an exploit and widening your bluffs down to 55 - which is another matter entirely, take it thoroughly.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    stop open limping in EP with marginal hands if you like money
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    @kenaces so I agree open limping and call or folding a lot is a bad strategy. You have too many hands. I will start to open limp in EP with marginal hands IF the table is allowing it. From there I play pretty fit or fold, and still it's a sticky proposition. However once upon a time I came against a player who in EP would limp all the hands he was interested in. From there, he would fold about 50%, call about 25% and 3-bet about 25%, mixing up his call and 3-bet strength of hands. This guy....was a nuisance. Everyone at the table hated him. They openly complained to him. He loved it. I loved it (even though I hated him too). Now, I don't have his strategy or his mindset to play like that, but I still remember it. I'd love to someone craft a bit of that game plan one day into mine as I refine other more beneficiary skills. Don't get me wrong, this is 100% a "play". I don't do this often. Maybe once every other session or so when I think the table will allow me to get away with it.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    @kenaces so I agree open limping and call or folding a lot is a bad strategy. You have too many hands. I will start to open limp in EP with marginal hands IF the table is allowing it.

    If the table is so soft then the marginal hands are easy raises

    I am more interested in what I can get away with(opening lots, 3Bing lots) and not worrying about what they will "allow"

  • JonasJonas Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    @kenaces so I agree open limping and call or folding a lot is a bad strategy. You have too many hands. I will start to open limp in EP with marginal hands IF the table is allowing it. From there I play pretty fit or fold, and still it's a sticky proposition. However once upon a time I came against a player who in EP would limp all the hands he was interested in. From there, he would fold about 50%, call about 25% and 3-bet about 25%, mixing up his call and 3-bet strength of hands. This guy....was a nuisance. Everyone at the table hated him. They openly complained to him. He loved it. I loved it (even though I hated him too). Now, I don't have his strategy or his mindset to play like that, but I still remember it. I'd love to someone craft a bit of that game plan one day into mine as I refine other more beneficiary skills. Don't get me wrong, this is 100% a "play". I don't do this often. Maybe once every other session or so when I think the table will allow me to get away with it.

    On the Doug Polk video "Would you Bluff Patrik Antonius here?" he talks about how he used to play that way: limp his WHOLE range. AA to gappers. So no one ever knows what he has and sometimes he connects with crazy boards that no one else does. It sounded interesting. I don't remember if he said only in early position but probably.

    I think it would make some good pots in low stakes/tables where you have a lot of limpers/calling stations. You'd essentially see a lot of flops cheap. But that means you better be sharp post.
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    He was describing a limping strategy from the SB. In the low stakes world of chop suey, I doubt this would ever be useful.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    Ya that was his SB strategy which he has since said he has gotten away from.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    Hero ($2-5) around $550, in in for $600 super super card dead or has been on the wrong end of flopping the straight turn paired the board action forced a fold, flop 2nd best trips yada yada has worked his way almost back to even almost exclusively off bluffing. Hero has told himself if he can break above even he is ready to leave....enter the poor decision making. V-1 broke from a $5-10 table 4k...seems very solid.

    1 limpers (V-2) limps everything, AA, KK and calls a ton of garbage hands hero in HJ with :QS::Ts , V 3-bets to $80 limper calls...I call. Error 1. Hand isn't strong enough, often dominated, not deep enough to maneuver. Would have folded if V-2 hadn't called.

    Pot $240
    Flop is :As:4d:2c . Check check V bet's $100. V-2 folds, I think for a bit. I honestly think it's a pretty weak bet, less than half pot. I can improve a lot on a turn, I'm not necessarily giving him credit for a ace. Problem is I block hands like KQ, 10's, I'd WANT him to have.

    Pot $440
    Turn is :7h . Check, with the intent to fold. He..checks back. Interesting


    River is :JC: . Hero gets the idea that I can rep a rivered set of jacks, or AJ that called the flop. AJ certainly seems like a hand I might open and call a 3-bet with. Hero bet's $180. V thinks for a bit, says "God, you got there didn't you? Man I think that jack helped you. Well, nice AJ." and calls. I say I got Q high he tables AQ. OPS.

    Anaylsis: Trainwreck.
    -But to get more specific, Q10s is an ALRIGHT hand I guess if 3 people are taking a flop, but it's better to be deeper. I only had 110 BB's, not really the time to fight for 3 bet pots. I'd have to flop really well, like a combo straight + flush draw, or perhaps flush + BD straight draw ect.
    -What value am I even representing? The check turn threw me for a loop. I was ready to fold the hand, but thought he might have been just weakly C-betting the flop. In reality, the only had he has here that has to give up is KQs...IF he would 3-bet that. BIG IF. AK, AQ, KK or QQ (I block QQ) so much more likely (heavily combo weighted towards AK and AQ).
    - If you wanna float...do it deeper. ZZZZZ.
    - When card dead and trying to get even, bluffing in 3-bet pots when you aren't the aggressor is suicide.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    QTs is NOT a call vs average 2/5 guys 3B range as they are so nitty imo

    I think you are giving way too much weight to CB size. On such a dry/static flop, and low SPR there is no reason to bet large. I think it is too light a hand to reverse float after guy CBs 3-way
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    So this game was pretty loose and full of action. Aqo isn't exactly a NITTY 3-bet. That being said, I won't try to further defend my call or really any of my actions in this hand as it was all just such a dumpster fire that was never gonna work (or work such a small percentage of the time against very specific hands). Out of courosity, what hands do you defend against a 3-bet with? Why do you select these hands?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    note that you think 100 into a dry board looks weak but then bet 180 into 440. Interestingly, Mike Gano explains succinctly the theory of bet sizing as a function of bluff:value in today's podcast- check that out and see how it applies to what you are representing here.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Ha, like I said dumpster fire. I was trying to risk the least amount I could to potentially win....and nothing about this was ever going to work. If this guy had pocket 7's he'd call me. But...I will give the podcast a listen to. After the hand I was talking to the guy and he was saying he woulda called a jam. His turn check was to try to induce a bluff, or to allow hands like AJ or A10 to continue, and he was trying to play for stacks.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yes, his line is certainly going to work sometimes against very aggressive opponents.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    Out of courosity, what hands do you defend against a 3-bet with? Why do you select these hands?

    In my 2/5 games where stacks often aren't deep, and players 3B range is VERY strong - I don't worry about "defending" and just over fold as exploit. Obviously I will adjust based on reads/stack size/position/position of fish.....

    In MSNL 6m I have ranges I use based on position and average reg frequencies.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Hm, gotcha. Yeah the $2-5 game I was in had 6 people 1k + so...fair amount of 3-betting. Still, I didn't have the stack to play in their reindeer games.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    $1-2 (950) hero has been running over the table running for the entire 2 hours he's been seated, running well and bluffing a ton. Lotta limpers. V has given away about $400 to hero, including hero trapping with AA, barreling with KK, and bluffing all-in with 9 high. He has started to verbally curse me saying "Your so full of shit, your bluffing. You get so lucky your not even good" when he's not even in hands with me. Take it easy bud it's just a game. V has about $130 left

    Straddle, v-1 limps to me in the HJ with :KH::JH: I make it $25. Folds around to V-1 who quickly calls.

    Pot $58

    Flop is :AS::KC::3H: . He checks I bet $25. I have c-bet with almost a 100% frequency in this situation at this table and it has been working. He quickly calls staring at me. Seems weak.

    Pot $108

    Turn is :3C: He checks again I bet $50. I think this will fold out all his weak aces, and even his PP that he's holding on with. He snap calls. I guess he's not giving up on his Ax. I maybe should have checked the turn, but I've pushed him off top pair hands before. I guess he's digging his heels in.

    Pot is $208

    River is :6D: Nothing changes, I check expecting him to take his showdown with an Ax weak or Kx. He says "oh you know what's coming." He jams.


    He only has like $36 left. I hem haw, I know the math says you gotta call....I have to be right so little but I just can't see him doing this without AJ/A10 MAYBE even AQ. No real draws on the flop. I say OK sir, I believe you. I fold, he tables :QC::Th . He's so boosted. "TAKE THAT! See, you just full of sh*t". I say "very nice hand sir. Well played, good bluff. Keep it up." SO. It's not only a bluff gone wrong, but it's also me getting bluff. Oh the 2 for 1 deal.

    Analysis: The flop c-bet isn't really warranted besides the fact that I've been doing it in position for almost all hands. There aren't really any draws I can get called with except I guess the gutterball. Further, if this guy is really this tilted, he might take Ax the whole way. On the turn, once he calls the flop if I check back he can take his Ax win. I don't really like giving up on pots, but by the river I'd have to think I was beat. The sizing were off the whole way through as well, as the turn should have been a shove, not a $50 let me see if I can fold his weak Ax with a 1/2 potter. The quest continues. I better listen to that podcast sooner than later eh @persuadeo .


  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sometimes your hands are like my personal life, lol.
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    When villains switch seats during a hand and then bet, it's almost always value. Good fold IMO.
  • JonasJonas Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    Yosh wrote: »
    When villains switch seats during a hand and then bet, it's almost always value. Good fold IMO.

    The old "teleport value bet". Crafty.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    i know I was like SUP! CAN HE REALLY SEAT CHANGE TO MY LEFT MID HAND? No, obviously lazy editing he just jammed the river for $36 and I just didn't see how he didn't have any hand with an Ax strong.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Alright...so the last few I posted were bad and obviously there wasn't much to say there. Let's try one with some intrigue to it!


    $1-3 hero ($850) has been running really well, got KK 2 out of 3 hands 2 orbits ago and made a majority of his money on that. Has show down with good hands and his 3-bet have been shown to be for "value" (not really, just the ones that went to showdown or that I've shown).


    Hero :AS::JD: 1 limper MP-3 opens to $18. V ($500) said he was looking for $2-5, saw some buddies and sat at the $1-3 table. Not a pro, these guys are guys like consultants or work on the hill. Think D.C. MA white guys with excess $. He throws in $53. Immediately tries to take it back, was talking to his buddy, dealer catches it and says the raise must stand. He starts laughing, and is like "well shit". It's either a sick angle shoot, or a genuine mistake. We're about to find out. I 3-bet to $200. His friends start laughing and he's like "well shit I really fucked up. Mannnnnn, this is like my favorite hand. This is so dumb." He calls.


    Pot $405~


    Flop is :KC::QD::6H: . He's got $300 left, if I check I will have to fold. I don't think he's angle shooting, I think it's time to rep AA, KK, QQ or AK AQ. I jam. Thoughts? Has anyone ever encounter anything like this?

  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 187 ✭✭
    I would assume his range would have a K or Q in it.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    I wouldnt neccicarily, as often people's favorite hands aren't "I love Kq!" It's like I love J10s ect

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