Is it ever right to raise double pot+ in a cash game?

colchurecolchure Red Chipper Posts: 74
edited March 2017 in Live Poker Hands
Hi

I played a hand recently in my local cash game where I won big, made a good read, but am concerned that it was wrong play.

£1/2 cash local pub game. Loose with lots of hero callers.

I am button. I have A Q unsuited.

It is checked to me and i raise £10

Two callers (sb and co)

Pot £33

Flop- 3clubs 6diamonds Ace diamond.

Effective stacks £160

sb raises £18
Co calls

Pot is £69

My thinking is that CO has a flush draw. I see Sb as a weak ace or less likely two pair/trips.

With the draw out there I don't want to call. If a diamond comes turn I am stuck. I consider a pot reraise of £66 but that leaves me only £100 left or a half pot raise on the turn if only one player calls. It also makes me vulnerable to a shove from a diamond draw. I also know that the Sb will play any ace and may also put me on a draw trying to push him off a nice pot.

3 way I also don't want to give nice odds to a flush draw for CO if Sb calls

So my logic makes me think I have to go all-in £160.

I go all-in. Sb thinks for a bit and then calls. Co tanks and folds.

SB shows Ace clubs and 7 diamonds

I win monster pot.

Is this good play and logic or are large over raises just a bad idea?

Thanks in advance

Comments

  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    colchure wrote: »
    £1/2 cash local pub game. Loose with lots of hero callers.


    colchure wrote: »
    So my logic makes me think I have to go all-in £160.

    I go all-in. Sb thinks for a bit and then calls. Co tanks and folds.

    A loose game with lots of hero callers? In a hand where you are confident that you have the best hand -- by far? Yeah, shoving makes sense to me. Good play, IMO.
  • chaubbchaubb Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    I think jamming was the best play with your effective stack on that spot. Considering there are couple straight draws and a flush draws which alot of turn cards make your hand vulnerable, you want to take it down on the flop in a loose game (most likely having the best hand on the flop.)
    If you choose to call, then you have to have a plan to fold to a bet on certain turn/river cards.
    Small raise doesnt really make sense with your stack (160 into 69 pot). how much would u raise really and what happens if someone calls and jams on a diamond turn?
  • colchurecolchure Red Chipper Posts: 74
    Thanks for the replies- yes it seems the spr and Board texture meant my decision was correct.

    Out of interest, in a tight nitty game, does my play still make sense? I.e the spr is the same. Ok the Sb is less likely to raises the flop with a weak ace, but he might with a draw. That seems to me also a position where I need to jam to stop the draws.?

    The difference seems to be that only hands that have me beat will call in this more nitty game. However how often do they have me beat compared to how often it is nice to take down a large pot £66 uncontested?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    In this situation, IMHO, I think the shove is bad.

    Deny FD equity ?
    First of all, you said you didn't want to give odds to call with :DIAMOND: FD. But if you calculate, this is wrong in both scenarii - when 1 or 2 Villains call:
    A/ SB and CO call
    If SB calls - and might on a loose table with hero callers (as you described it) - , CO have great odds to call with only a FD (9 outs). Same if SB calls with FD hoping that CO will follow.
    Pot (if 1 calls): 33 (pre) +18 (CO 1st call)+160 (SB call) +160 (Hero bet) = 389
    Pot odds for CO: 142/389+142 = 26.74%
    9 outs on 2 streets = 34,97%
    So CO can easily call with any :DIAMOND: FD

    B/ Only SB or CO calls
    If only SB or CO calls, pot odds are then 142/229+142=38.27%. So barely -EV when holding only FD (9 outs).
    The call turns +EV if Villain has some extra equity: FD+gutshot, FD+straight draw, FD+pair of 3.

    So you're not deep enough / there is too much dead money to deny them their FD equity. If they know how to calculate, they will call.

    Where does come the money from?
    Also don't forget that you get money from weaker hands. And FD is a weaker hand that TP2K. So you want them to call. As you want weaker A, 6X, 45 etc. to call.

    Yes there are some scary card - especially the 9 :DIAMOND: left. But as said Splitsuit in a video: what's scary should not be a possible flush on the board, but a possible flush AND a happy Villain.
    Plus if you look at SB: with Ac7c he fears a :DIAMOND: flush as much as you.

    Even better: you were in position! So you will see if suddenly a Villain wakes up and go all-in on a 3rd diamond. And if it goes check-check, you can value-bet your AQ.

    Conclusion
    In this situation, I'm reluctant to like this all-in. It's not denying FD equity AND it lets money on the table as CO fold when he would surely happily have paid 1 or 2 street more.
    Blunder like SB calling with A7 is not that frequent. Most of time you may be called by better or by draws with strong equity against you.

    IMHO the only 2 situations I'm happy with an eventual overbet - a very big overbet - are:
    - value bet with nuts against a Villain who won't be able to fold 2nd or 3rd nuts (like flush A v. flush K).
    - big bluffs on a scary card against a Villain who can fold.
    (And, of course, the success of the big bluffs is linked with Hero actually overbetting for value sometimes. Otherwise it's too bluff heavy and unbalanced.)
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 895 ✭✭✭
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    colchure wrote: »
    I am button. It is checked to me and i raise £10. Two callers (sb and co). Pot £33.

    Just for future reference, it will help people giving you answers if you're a little more careful describing the action. What you wrote is impossible, so we have to try and figure it out :-)

  • colchurecolchure Red Chipper Posts: 74
    Jeff- ok - the table folds round except for co who calls. I bet £10. Any help with the question or too busy being the class pedant?

    Red- fantastic analysis. Really good to see the math explained. Would you ever make a larger overbet if stacks were deep enough? Also what about the fact that the large bet may make two pair fold?

    Thanks

  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 322 ✭✭✭
    colchure wrote: »
    Jeff- ok - the table folds round except for co who calls. I bet £10. Any help with the question or too busy being the class pedant?

    Really don't think this was necessary, he was being helpful in a pretty gentle fashion.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    colchure wrote: »
    Jeff- ok - the table folds round except for co who calls. I bet £10. Any help with the question or too busy being the class pedant?

    Having an extra player VP$IP before you is hardly being pedantic*. But hey, post your hand examples however you want my friend, it's a free country.


    *But since you think it is, that could be part of the problem right there.....
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Edit: I'm re-reading my post and it sounds pedant. Please take it only as advises and help, really not like "Dr House" perspective ^^'
    colchure wrote: »
    Red- fantastic analysis. Really good to see the math explained. Would you ever make a larger overbet if stacks were deep enough?

    Meh, I don't really see the point to raise so much on the flop. There should be a reason to bet (or raise). It's only either to make a worst hand continue ("value bet") or to make a better hand fold ("bluff") - see this short video or this longer article, both from Splitsuit, to refresh your memory.

    Here we have TP2K. Surely ahead, barely not threaten (except by a flush or a gutshot) and in position. An overbet will have bad effect as many worst hands will fold (instead of call) and the ones continuing will have a stronger equity against you - and we can fear we are behind when they call so large.
    colchure wrote: »
    Also what about the fact that the large bet may make two pair fold?
    Now your hand reading skills should be used here.
    - CO limp-call
    - SB call OOP
    What is their range?

    The flop is :AD: :6D: :3C:
    SB donkbets and CO calls. What may they have? Is there any 2 pairs in here? :)

    This is the though process you should have during all hands when you play. And practice it off table - for example right now for these 2 Villains :) - to make it easier when you're under the stress of an actual hand.
  • colchurecolchure Red Chipper Posts: 74
    @Jeff- "Having an extra player VP$IP before you is hardly being pedantic*. But hey, post your hand examples however you want my friend, it's a free country."

    I think if you had actually added some analysis to the discussion as well as pedantry you would be better received. Turning up to simply nit pick (when the other three replies immediately understood what was meant) is a bit off.

    @red- really helpful. Thanks for taking the time to continue the discussion
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,580 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    You're over-reacting. You miss understand the point. Be tight in your description, period. It's not really hard to understand that some may have read your post than after the third line just gave up since the first impression it leave is that the rest of the story will be fucked up hard to understand.

    For your question, it's called No-Limit for a reason. And there will be times and situations where it will be ok, but you got to understand why not just concluding based on others answers that "yeah ok, it will happen, it's ok". You got to understand the purpose of sizing, what it accomplish. Bets sizing mostly rely on ranges, they are closely related.

    I don't know if you know Fold Equity, The Break Even Calling % for V when you bet but if not I would strongly suggest to investigate those topics. The odds you're offering V when you bet, define theoretically how much bluffs you should have in you're range. So if you bet Half Pot river, V needs to be good 25% or more thus you need to have 25% bluffs or less in your range.

    Now if you understand that than you now understand that the more your bet size is large river the more V need to be good, you will understand that the larger the bet the more difficult it is for V to find hands that can actually call such a large bet, since the % he need to be good is increasing drastically with the large bet.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭✭
    I know this is after the fact, but given that your opponent called with A7 for his stack, then this play is totally fine. I know it's hard to get a feel for the player type in the forum, but it sounds like this opponent was a very weak player.

    One thing that sticks out to me is your assumption of your opponent's hand strength. You think he has a flush draw. I think this is going to be a very big mistake in the long run given that most ranges at this point in a hand will be mostly NOT flush draws. However, let's say that your read is correct. Now, is shoving the best option in this case? I suppose it could be depending on the player type. Perhaps this player is one who is happy to get his stack in with a flush draw. However, I think the majority of the time, you're only going to get them to fold these draws and continue with hands that either beat you or have some real potential to beat you. I think you got pretty lucky to run into a portion of his range that he was happy to continue with.

  • colchurecolchure Red Chipper Posts: 74
    @Adam Wheeler I am not sure why you are talking about bluffs with regard to my hand. I wasn't bluffing and nor was my opponent. Could you elaborate further? Also if the bigger the bet size the harder it is for V to call then why not just bet ones stack at any reasonable built pot?
  • colchurecolchure Red Chipper Posts: 74
    @bigburge10 - yes that was what I was worried about too- that I basically got lucky he had portion of the range he did. I take your point re the flush draw as well. Out of interest how would you have played the hand post flop?
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 570 ✭✭✭
    colchure wrote: »
    Also if the bigger the bet size the harder it is for V to call then why not just bet ones stack at any reasonable built pot?

    Great question.

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,580 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    colchure wrote: »
    @Adam Wheeler I am not sure why you are talking about bluffs with regard to my hand. I wasn't bluffing and nor was my opponent. Could you elaborate further? Also if the bigger the bet size the harder it is for V to call then why not just bet ones stack at any reasonable built pot?

    In fact you could, but it will be very easy to exploit you, i hope you understand why.

    I know you weren't bluffing, i was explaining the theory behind bet sizing and what it does. I was trying to explain what a 2x Pot river does in fact for your range and V range.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,580 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017
    Yosh wrote: »
    colchure wrote: »
    Also if the bigger the bet size the harder it is for V to call then why not just bet ones stack at any reasonable built pot?

    Great question.

    Let's say i'm entering pots the cheapest i can than shove Flop with sets, straight, and NFD and OESD.

    With what hands in your opening range are you gonna call me ? Not a lot right ? So the hands you'll call my shove with will be pretty rare right. That's my point. You'll find it very difficult to actually find hands in your range to call that shove and as soon as you call with TPTK with your range I'm gonna exploit you.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭✭
    colchure wrote: »
    @bigburge10 - yes that was what I was worried about too- that I basically got lucky he had portion of the range he did. I take your point re the flush draw as well. Out of interest how would you have played the hand post flop?

    Depends on my opponent. Against this player, I'm going to take the exploitative route--bet with TPTK+. Doesn't sound like this player is going to be very bluffable.

    Against a stronger player, I'd probably check a lot. Perhaps bet a few trips, TT-QQ, and some of my low flush draws and OESD's.

    AJo specifically--definitely not c betting this hand. I'm happy to see the turn with this. I'll have plenty of worse stuff worthy of a bluff.

  • colchurecolchure Red Chipper Posts: 74
    @bigburge10 ok I think I understand your line thinking.

    How does that specifically relate to the bet amount.

    You say you would take the exploitative route and bet, but how much would you bet into a £69 pot facing a £18 raise with £160 behind? I know this is very specific but that is the crux of my original question- all lower bet sizes than a shove seemed to me exploitable and wouldn't leave enough money behind to do anything meaningful on later streets?
  • colchurecolchure Red Chipper Posts: 74
    @Adam Wheeler you have lost me a bit now! You seem to be saying both you and I can be exploited (if you take persona of villain in my original post)?? If I shove any built pot, then as you say, you can only call with rare hands. Therefore I make lots of money from built pots that more than compensates me for the rare hands you are able to play against my shove (that also then have to win to showdown). So where is the easy exploitation route you can take to counter my shove?

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,580 ✭✭✭✭
    @colchure
    I wasn't refering about your hand in any of my post.

    You asked "Is it ever right to raise double pot+ in a cash game?" and as @Imperator put it simply, the answer is yes.

    What i was saying is that it is kind of important to understand what an overbet accomplish. I spent some time lately reading and talking about this very powerful concept that is still misunderstood by many players and i'm not even sure if i understand the full extend of it to be honest but nonetheless that is what i was trying to say. I wasn't talking about your specific hand and that is maybe why there is seem to be a little confusion.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭✭
    colchure wrote: »
    @bigburge10 ok I think I understand your line thinking.

    How does that specifically relate to the bet amount.

    You say you would take the exploitative route and bet, but how much would you bet into a £69 pot facing a £18 raise with £160 behind? I know this is very specific but that is the crux of my original question- all lower bet sizes than a shove seemed to me exploitable and wouldn't leave enough money behind to do anything meaningful on later streets?

    Sorry, I was overlooking that question. Against a lot of players, I think you can get away with a smaller raise on the flop--maybe to $60? Then shoving on the turn. However, I guess if this player is going to call off with A7o, and I'd bet the majority of their donk range is Ax, then shoving is a great play--especially with your stack size.

    For example, if his donk range is something like 33, 66, and any A, then you have a 60% equity in this spot. If the range gets any wider, your equity only increases. Plus, they're willing to call with A7--which makes me believe they're calling with all aces in this spot. Only real problem is the weaker part of their range--they're probably going to fold all of it. But, I guess we can say who cares? Perhaps we're not getting much more value from those weaker portions anyway and we can max out of the "stronger" portions.

    After looking at this hand for a little longer, I became curious of whether you held the Qd in your hand. The flushes are much less likely given the A is on the board--and even cut a little more if you have the Qd.

    Like I said, I don't mind the shove. It certainly has a ton of merit against this player.

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