Line Check 5NL

epokerepoker Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
In a game with a bunch of calling stations 6 max. I'm UTG with :Kh :Jh. I raise to .15. Get called by UTG +1 (40/12 3b 5% over 90 hands) and UTG +2 (61/3 3b 0% over 81 hands). So far so good.

I've got: $4.86
UTG +1: $1.20
UTG+2: Covers but barely

Pot is .52 going into the flop.

Flop comes:
:JC: :5d :3c

Both V's calling of cbets on a raised pot is about 40%
My thoughts at this point is that there are a ton of draws that are in both of their ranges along with weaker jacks. So I cbet 3/4 pot. I'm hoping UTG + 1 shoves so I can reshove if UTG + 2 calls. So I bet .33. UTG + 1 folds. UTG + 2 calls.

Pot is $1.18, relative stack is 4.53 with SPR of 3.8. Now that I'm putting this hand on paper should I make this bet bigger so the SPR on the turn is smaller and an easier shove when a brick hits?

Turn:
:3H:

I bet 3/4 again. At the time I was thinking this was too big of an SPR to shove and I wasn't sure what to do. Thought the board was too wet to go for a check/raise-shove (I figured it would go check/check if I checked) . So I bet out .75. Sizing felt wrong too me though. He calls with little thought. Pot is 2.68. Relative stack size is: 3.78.

River:
:2C:

Ugh! I was running bad and this didn't help. Every draw just got there. A4 is definitely in his range along w/ 64 and of course clubs. I feel like I'm beat, but don't want to give up quite yet. I 1/3 pot it and pray he has a weaker J. The bet is .85. I'm planning of folding to a raise. He raises to 2.55 and I insta muck.

Thinking back on all of @SplitSuit 's videos I probably shouldn't have put myself in this river situation with a bigger bet on the flop and/or turn? Either way let me know your thoughts on each street.

Thanks!

Comments

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    The important thing to know about you're V is if they are aggressive or passive. Are they likely to bet if you check to them. This will help you define which line should be better Flop given that you want all UTG+1 money in the pot on Turn or River. Plus at least 2 bets from UTG+2.

    As played Cbet Flop is ok and sizing also. Remember that Calling Station are for the most part inelastic. They call period, no matter the bet size. On Turn you are still likely ahead and your bet is ok. Here the sizing will depend I would say on how you play NFD on Turn. But generally you can't go wrong going 3/4 2/3 vs Calling Station with that holding on this board.

    River i would check/call check/fold dependin on the sizing.
  • SliverOverlordSliverOverlord Red Chipper Posts: 324 ✭✭✭
    I agree with @Adam Wheeler , I like the check on the river, with intention to fold. Well played hand before the river! From the theory side, you have better hands in your range to check call a bet, Top set, maybe middle set, Clubs... While I think he could potentially be bluffing here, what would he bluff? all of his good bluff floats got there. I would expect his range to be clubs, straights, maybe some sets, and the occasional "Fishnuts" of AA-QQ that are "trapping." There are definitely some brave 61/3s out there who can make this play with complete air but its not a play I would expect to see often.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    X/F is probably in order, unless you have see V Value worst a couple times.
  • epokerepoker Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    Thanks @Adam Wheeler and @SliverOverlord .

    I wasn't worried about a set or even an overpair to the J. Given the previous pots I had been in with them or seen them in, no draw was ever priced out for either V no matter the bet size (within reason), so their range was definitely draw heavy.
    Remember that Calling Station are for the most part inelastic. They call period, no matter the bet size...

    I agree with this. Now knowing this and knowing either V would be willing to call a big bet on the Flop with "questionable" draws, would it be a better line to overbet the pot. Say a bet size of .70 into .52 on the flop. Then when V calls, the pot is 1.92, effective stacks are 4.16 and SPR is 2.16? When the :3H: comes on the turn I could shove and probably get called by worse jacks, flush draws, straight draws and even 77-TT. I've seen guys call with all sorts of hands on a draw heavy board on the turn, so I think this isn't a bad line.

    Or maybe bet $3 into the pot on the turn and leave so little behind the river is a call no matter what comes?

    I've also read posts where people take a passive pot control line on draw heavy boards with 1 pair type hands. But I suspect that is against tricky opponents not calling stations like this.

    What do you guys think about these two alternative lines? I find myself in this spot all the time. I bloat a pot with a 1 pair hand on a wet board against a V that is willing to call down and the worst card in the deck hits on the river. Then I have a big pot and I'm facing a big bet with an awkward SPR.

    Thanks!
  • DeezNutsDeezNuts Red Chipper Posts: 122 ✭✭
    edited April 2017
    I also agree with the check on the river as played. With the sizing you chose, V can raise with napkins and know he's going to take it down because your river bet looks scared.
    I like your flop bet and size. Your turn bet I like as well. Maybe a little bigger. But still fine.
    You are trying to get value with top pair against a wide range. We are happy for V to continue on his draw as long as we don't give him good odds. Let him make his mistakes. He just unfortunately probably got there.

    As far as your alternate lines you mentioned... I don't really like em. I mean do you really think V is going to call a shove on turn with a draw? Future posts might me skewed on the alternate lines since we know river.
  • Just4funziesJust4funzies Red Chipper Posts: 8
    The one thing that stood out to me in this post was the misuse of the concept (SPR).

    Its good to calculate the pot/effective stack size on the flop, but recalculating the spr for the turn is a misapplication of the concept

    I used to do the same thing, then i watched a quick 7 minute video on youtube by splitsuit called "what is SPR? Poker quick plays" and it cleared things up quite a bit. Hope it helps you also.

    Take care.
  • epokerepoker Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    @Just4funzies You are right. I was misapplying the concept to the turn and river. I think I just need to x/f this river. Thanks for the comments!

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