Sunday evening at the Hollywood Park 3/5 game

Geoffrey TGeoffrey T Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
edited April 2017 in Live Poker Hands
Hollywood Park Casino LA, CA $3/$5
Effective stack is Villian's $200

One Limper. Villian Open Raises to 20 on the Button.
I've been sitting on this Villian's left for about 3 hours at this point, but have not played with him previous to this session.
(When he opens to 20 on the button, I think his range could be 44+, Axs , A7o+, K9s+, KJo+, QTs+, QJo , JTs + .... this may be tighter than what he's opening? This is a rough guesstimate. )

I call in SB w :Ad:7d (Should I be looking to 3 bet this some of the time?)
BB Calls.

Pot is $70 - Flop is : :Qh:8s:9d

I check. BB checks. Button bets 25.
I call. BB folds.

Pot is $130 - Turn is :Qd

I check. Button bets $50.
I call.

Pot is $220 - River is :4h
I check. Button shoves 120.
I fold.

I'd love to get your guy's thought's on the hand.
Are there alternate lines that make more sense?
I appreciate the time. Thanks!

Comments

  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Geoffrey T wrote: »
    One Limper. Villian Open Raises to 20 on the Button.
    I've been sitting on this Villian's left for about 3 hours at this point, but have not played with him previous to this session.
    (When he opens to 20 on the button, I think his range could be 44+, Axs , A7o+, K9s+, KJo+, QTs+, QJo , JTs + .... this may be tighter than what he's opening? This is a rough guesstimate. )

    I call in SB w :Ad:7d (Should I be looking to 3 bet this some of the time?)
    BB Calls.

    Pot is $70 - Flop is : :Qh:8s:9d

    I check. BB checks. Button bets 25.
    I call. BB folds.

    Pot is $130 - Turn is :Qd

    I check. Button bets $50.
    I call.

    Pot is $220 - River is :4h
    I check. Button shoves 120.
    I fold.

    I'd love to get your guy's thought's on the hand.
    Are there alternate lines that make more sense?
    I appreciate the time. Thanks!

    I'm gonna be a little harsh on you, Geoffrey - because it sounds like you truly want to improve. So take what I say with a grain of salt... but please take it to heart.

    1st: You've been playing with V for THREE HOURS!
    That means y'all have played 45-65 hands together... you've gone thru 4-7 orbits.
    You should have something much better than a rough guestimate on V's range.
    (SplitSuit just put out some videos about when a V stops becoming a unknown. After 3 hours, you should have a profile on him.)
    What's his frequency on the button?
    How often does he raise a limper when he's in position?
    How does he manage flops?
    What's his c-betting frequency?
    Is he comfortable or nervous during the hand?
    How does his bet-sizing compare to other hands?

    All these things should inform you as to whether or not you should call his raise preflop or 3-bet him.

    Next: Stack sizes.
    V bets 20 with 180 behind.
    That doesn't allow a lot of room for "poker"... meaning bluffs, semi-bluffs, check/raises etc. If you 3-bet.... y'all are left with an SPR of basically 1 if he calls.
    The effective stack size is just too damn small to try to maneuver with your hand.

    Next: :AD::7D:
    What's you plan with the hand?
    Win a showdown with Ace-high?
    You're basically looking for a flop with 2 or more :DIAMOND: , 2 or more 7s and or an Ace-high flop that he checks back.
    I'd much rathe have :7D::8D: here than A7... because if he's got an Ace.... you should be dominated.

    Bottom line:
    V's stack is too short to be calling pre with hopes of making a hand.
    A7s is too weak to be calling a pfr from oop.
    And if you do call and get the flop that you got - floating with A7s is plain, old spew.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Adding on to @kagey's post, why do you continue calling post-flop? You only flopped a back-door straight and a back-door flush; you have no real equity this hand.
  • Emperor_MolluskEmperor_Mollusk Red Chipper Posts: 81 ✭✭
    You should not call sb with almost nothing, that's a good rule of life in poker. If you do call, know that you play your hand heads-up. I can't see an A in your calling range there but here you have it...why not shove? vs that rnage you're doing good + fold equity if you have been tight you get a lot of credit.

    As played...why do you call on flop?! Look, man, let's say the rnage you put him on..let' say 30%. put that in flopzilla and see how he does on that flop...not bad, not bad at all..in fact that's a pretty good flop for almost anything he has. He can continue with 60-70% of his holding. and then..

    ..what is your perceived range? you are incredibly capped there, really wtf can you have to hit on that flop QJ? KQ? QT? do you even call with those? if he has a Q, you have basically nothing believable. I dunno man, I'm curious what your rationale was here because it really seems like a good ol' spew trying to catch a miracle card.
  • Geoffrey TGeoffrey T Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Hey guys, I really appreciate the feedback.
    I'm happy that I decided to post this hand. I already learned a lot just by writing it out and i've learned a ton more after reading your thoughts and criticism's.

    After the hand was over I was aware that the way I played the hand was a mistake.
    Hearing the reasons why I should be folding this preflop, almost always, in this spot make a lot of sense... being that better Aces can so likely be in his range, that I'm out of position, and the stack sizes. These are things that I did not think of in game.

    I'm obviously still learning how to put my opponents on ranges.
    All of the profiling questions that @kagey laid out that I need to know....i believe i have a feel for these, but i'm not very good at storing all the data and being able to recall it at the moment i need it.
    By the time I wrote this post I had forgotten what kinds of hands he had shown down and the ways those particular pots played out, as well as his preflop raise frequency, cbet frequency, etc..

    In game I was paying to attention to these things but definitely not to the point where I could answer each of these questions super confidently. What is the best way to know someone's frequency from the button? Hands he opens on the button/all hands dealt? I was definitely not counting how many hands we played, so that's definitely a problem.
    I wasn't paying close enough attention to how his actions did or didn't change when there were limpers as far as frequencies, but he would up his raise size by the amount each limper added to the pot. (His standard open raise was $15. One limper- $20. Two limpers - $25).

    In game I had a better idea of the frequencies, but when I posted this I honestly could not remember... but I clearly see that I need to get better at figuring out how my opponents are playing in specific situations and using that to my advantage. I have been watching and reading a lot of strategy content on hand reading and I have seen the videos you've mentioned. I've been practicing off the table, working out ranges, but when I'm in the game i know i'm not keeping proper track of specific ongoings. I'm trying to figure out how to put it all into action.

    The list of questions that @kagey gave are clearly so important to know, when deciding what to do preflop, and I wasn't t diligent in getting those answers.

    After the flop came out and he bet, I was leaning very heavily toward a fold, and I know I should've folded, for a slew of reasons. I'm very likely to be behind, I didn't get the flop I was hoping for, this flop hits his range pretty hard, I'm still out of position, and so on.

    It was a mistake compounding on a mistake.
    In the moment i was playing terribly, chasing a miracle card as @Emperor_Mollusk said.
    And i knew it after the hand, and I know it even more after reading what you guys have said. It seems so obvious now.
    I'm happy to be learning from my mistakes.
    Thanks again for taking the time guys.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't sweat it, @Geoffrey T - we've all been there and we've all done it.
    I can remember calling bet after bet with a good hand... but obviously not a hand that beats what my V was representing... like I was in a trance or a deer caught in the headlights. I think I used to do that so as not to look weak... today, I don't do that.

    If you're learning from posting and reading replies - then continue to post troubling hands. Pretty soon, you'll be the one giving some food for thought to the next round of new forum posters.

    GL.
  • LeonardLeonard Red Chipper Posts: 249 ✭✭
    Ill comment since I live in LA.

    If this is the 3/5 hollywood park game 100 -300, you need a different strategy for this game and Ad7d probably isn't it.

    Why? This game structure isn't deep enough to play A7dd. Why? The BEST case scenario your going to get is a flush over flush situation.

    This game is more weighted toward playing strong hands preflop and just going with them. Suited connectors, speculative hands really go down in value since players stacks are so shallow.

    If possible, try to play the 5-5 game or at bare worse, assuming your buying in for 300, play the 3-5 game at Hawaiian Gardens. That game you HAVE to buy in exactly for 300 so at least stacks are "deeper"

    If your just learning, the 2/3 game at the Bike might be a better option.

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