Misplayed?

uglytunauglytuna Red Chipper Posts: 130 ✭✭
I would like to discuss a hand that I played over this past weekend. I played in Charity event where first place was a 2017 WSOP Main Event seat. I’ve had some past history success at these events. Generally these events host around 40-60 players. The secondary prizes are a ham sandwich as only first place prize is only important to me.

This event had about 40+ players. I got off to a fast start then stayed afloat for a few hours. Then slowly chipped up after the rebuy period was over. Then dragged a monster post when I tripled up. With about 12 player remaining I had an interesting hand that I’m not sure I played it very well.

The line I take in this hand, I’ve find myself making more often lately and wondering if you can give me your thoughts.

Let me set the scene, we are on the final table bubble however this bubble is basically shit. They awarded miscellaneous prizes for place for 2 through 10 but it’s a ham sandwich all under the cost of the buyin for this event.

My table was shorthanded (6 players) and I was the table chip leader with approximately 220K. The villain in this hand was sitting on a stack of 160-170K. The two of us had all the chips, the rest of the players had 100K or less. My image at the time was LAG. I was opening a lot of pots and especially against the BB (in this hand) as he was not defending his hand nearly enough. My aggression was at the point that players started to play back at me just a bit. I remained balance on my opens and just because I was getting 3B jammed on, it did not deter my opening. These players were starting to give me some resistance. So I was adjusting by not bluffing or trying to muscle these players out of any pots.

The villain (Eddie, I think that was his name) in this hand, which I had no prior history ever and only been playing with him for couple of hours. Eddie seemed capable and a solid player but apparently accumulated lots of his chips when the deck hit him all day.

The hand begins with me opening the HJ with 65d. I elected to open this hand because the BB rarely defends. My raise possible can steal the button and I would hold position and initiative. If the BB did defend I can effectively beat him with any two cards as long it doesn’t hit his range.

After reviwing this hand, I probably should fold 65s. Eddie on the button was arm with a big stack and had position on me.
However because the BB does not defend it swayed me otherwise and I opened.

Lately I been paying attention of the player on the button. So if I see a good player with a stack and loves his button, it will deter me from opening with my trashy holdings. I overlooked this own advice in this hand.

So with the blind 3000-6000, I open to 15K and Eddie flats OTB and the blinds fold down. I’m pretty much done with this hand unless I flop two pair or draw.

FLOP: Td 7d 2c

I elected to check here. I do balance my bets and check here. More often than not, I generally lead with my naked FD in a heads-up pot.

Here, I didn’t want to be 3B off my FD especially when its only 6 high FD. Eddie bets 25K and after some thought I called and range him with lots of Tx hands, and SD and same with FD.
Although I have two blockers to a FD.

So hands like AT, KT, JT, and QT were most likely holdings. With my check he could pounce on this flop with his position.

TURN: 4h

This is where my line goes astray, not optimal and the reason for the email. After talking with my buddy Paul (A good player who I respect at the tables) his advice is C/C the Turn is his preferred play.

However I’ve find myself taking this creative line more often lately with a mix bag of results.

With approximately 90K in the pot, I donked bet Turn for 33K. I did this for a few reasons;

(1) I can simply bet here and win the pot right here, pretty ambitious but may work if the villain has air. If the villain was just betting because I check the flop, folds may happen so of the time.

(2) My bet sizing was a pot control line. More importantly, I felt if I did check the Turn the Villain will probably barrel the Turn for a larger amount. If Eddie has top pair he will more likely bet 50% or bigger to punish me for my draws. So with me betting its allowing me to set my own price on the pot, which probably cheaper than a future C/C. I just don’t think I’ll see that many check backs from the Eddie on the Turn.

(3) Betting, narrows the villains range further.

(4) Lastly, If I didn’t pick up an OESD on the Turn, I probably would C/C if the price was right. Since I did pick up equity with a FD and SD, I am building a pot if I hit.

Paul does not like this line of mine by betting to build the pot. I will whiff too often, costing me chips vs the only player at the table that could hurt me. Paul prefers a C/C on the Turn but he did agree that I mostly likely save money with my bet sizing on this street.

Regarding the Turn action, I was mostly likely folding to any large 3B by the V.

The V gave some thought to my bet and called the 33K.

RIVER: 3d

Although I preferred to hit my straight outs, I did hit one of my flush outs. I believe I possibly have the best hand. I make a value bet of 45k, a good sizing for someone with Tx to call.
Eddie gave some thought and announces he is All-in !!!

[email protected]&K, after throwing up in my mouth, I went deep into the tank and tried to determine what he was representing.

It was very easy to rule out all Sets and Two pairs, as those hand would be raising the Turn on such a wet board. Plus not many two pair combos make much sense here.

Top pair and all one pair holding are only calling my River bet. So he has to be strong here.
Could he be raising top pair as a bluff? History says not likely.
Back door straight are possible but unlikely holdings.

If this villain has Ace or King high flushes absolutely could 3B shove. It’s very possible for Eddie to bet his FD on the Flop, C/C the Turn and Jam the River if he is holding Axd.

Paul thinks, I should C/C the River as I would be able to see a showdown without going all-in. Plus it gives the Villain in this spot to bet all their one pair, two pair holding to be snapped off.
After reviewing the hand with Paul that makes more sense to C/C Turn and C/C River. Do you agree? Can you build a case, that you could play the hand in my fashion.

If your curious, after deliberating for a while, I folded the hand. Later on, Eddie pulled me on the side on a break. Asked if I really had a Flush? He confided in me that he had A2d, if he was telling the truth. I felt his response was genuine. FWIW.

Should I ever play a baby FD which pickup more outs on the Turn in the manner I did?

Thought....

Tuna

Comments

  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭
    Not a fan of XC-lead lines in HU pots. I think you turn sizing choose doesn't make much sense either as you really don't generate much fold equity with 1/3 OOP.

    I don't play a lot of MTTs or short stack poker but my first thought is to to XR flop.
  • uglytunauglytuna Red Chipper Posts: 130 ✭✭
    My turn lead was not meant to get the V to fold as I don't think I was able to get the V to fold.

    If I bet 1/3 pot I can set the price of the Turn bet. Sure some V will pounce on this lead with strong hands or good reads that I'm either weak or on a draw.

    Being OOP and I better of XC here? I figure if I'm going to call any bet less than a pot size bet why not just lead out and set my price?

    I have too much equity to fold the turn.

    Is my logic flawed?

  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭
    given your XC on flop it is hard to know how much fold equity(FE)you have on turn as we have to know both villains preflop CC range and flop stab range to calculate.

    when you lead the turn you are semi-bluffing with 6-high so you want to generate FE to maximize your EV NOT just set you price with draw
  • uglytunauglytuna Red Chipper Posts: 130 ✭✭
    Generally I would maximize EV IP with a large bet and pot control with my draw OOP. Is this flawed?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your turn bet does not work with the board. It reps nothing, it means nothing. I understand this is a tournament and that chips are worth more than chip ev and therefore this bet does accomplish a nebulous something, but basic poker fundamentals still inform even tourney fun house mirror principles.
  • uglytunauglytuna Red Chipper Posts: 130 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Your turn bet does not work with the board. It reps nothing, it means nothing.

    I agree, I was not trying to create fold equity. I was trying to get to showdown cheaply as possible. I agree my bet doesn't represent much except possibly 2nd pair or worst. I was not try to create a FE situation.

    With that said I think C/C the turn is the optimal play.

    I really need to take my unorthodox line out of my poker tool box.

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ok, but that possibly misses the point. What if an A,K, Q arrives? Now your lead begins to tell a story. You can't be raised in that situation. Here, repping nothing, you are fortunate, in a way, to even see the river card. In fact, if your line accomplishes something, it's to induce, but the player was cautious.

    In other words, it's not a technical action that defines a play - after all, there are only so many in poker - it's coherency with the situation. X/c lead is an action recommended by Seidman himself - but not without regard to the board and situation.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭
    uglytuna wrote: »
    I agree, I was not trying to create fold equity. I was trying to get to showdown cheaply as possible. I agree my bet doesn't represent much except possibly 2nd pair or worst. I was not try to create a FE situation.

    With that said I think C/C the turn is the optimal play.

    I really need to take my unorthodox line out of my poker tool box.

    you want to get to showdown with 6 high?
  • uglytunauglytuna Red Chipper Posts: 130 ✭✭
    I misspoke, I want to get to the river.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    uglytuna wrote: »
    Is my logic flawed?

    Well for one thing, you can't both be building a pot and pot controlling at the same time. The only time that makes sense (pot building) is if you think villain would check anyway, which is what you really want him to do anyway.

    Looking back on your 4 listed reasons, I don't agree with any of them actually. What happened I believe is that you got excited over having turned such a great draw. But the problem is, in terms of playability on the turn, it doesn't really change anything, other than the fact that you can call a larger bet than before.

    1. you said in a later post you're not looking for fold equity
    2. as discussed (see 4)
    3. why do you need to narrow villain's range? You're either going to hit your hand or you're not - it's not like you'rd holding T9. Unless you plan to bluff the river if you miss - that's the only way this can help you
    4. as discussed (see 2)


  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭
    uglytuna wrote: »
    I misspoke, I want to get to the river.

    you want to get to the river with 6-high?
  • uglytunauglytuna Red Chipper Posts: 130 ✭✭
    I want to get the river to see my draw
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    uglytuna wrote: »
    I want to get the river to see my draw

    ... and there is the flaw in how you played your hand.
    you played it in hopes that it hits... you played it on a wing & a prayer
    in tournament poker, this sometimes works... but it's always -EV
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭
    uglytuna wrote: »
    I want to get the river to see my draw

    This is your problem - Just trying to "get there" isn't winning poker. You need to win pots without showdown and when you have draw+FE you need to do something to generate FE (ie XR flop - jam turn) to maximize EV
  • uglytunauglytuna Red Chipper Posts: 130 ✭✭
    Thank for opening my eyes. I've been playing a small ball approach which I try to pot control to see if I get there.

    I understand now I should be creating FE spots by taking the initiative.

    Let me ask you this, what if you have a hand that has showdown equity but no where near the nuts. However there is a chance you are beating some parts of the V range? A spot where folding would be too weak but jamming and create FE could be hazardous to our tournament health. As they can play perfectly against us. Fold all worst hands and call when they are ahead.

    I assume this comes down to balance and should be done with a polarized range?
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Opening 56s from HJ is optimistic when you're starting to get played back at.
    Especially when the only guy who can hurt you is on your left.

    I don't mind opening... but when V calls, chips saved are chips that can help you win something other than the ham sandwich.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,396 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    I'm a cash games player, maybe my comments won't be the best for a tournament hand.

    I agree with the previous position, esp. @persuadeo , as your turn bet doesn't rep anything (plus has few to none FE, but didn't intend to).
    Problem is you didn't C-Bet the flop, which caps your range. And suddenly you donkbet after a dry :4H: Turn. So donkbetting is bizarre and not really consistant. Especially for so cheap.
    In extenso, how would you have reacted if Villain had raised your donkbet?

    IMHO a better cheap river might simply be X/C the turn and call any mathematicaly (pot odds / equity).

    For a creative move, maybe a C-R ? You start to rep some sets, even TT which preferred a X/C because of the dry flop (esp. if only one T is left), and start to have some FE (even if your bet wasn't for FE).
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭
    uglytuna wrote: »

    Let me ask you this, what if you have a hand that has showdown equity but no where near the nuts. However there is a chance you are beating some parts of the V range? A spot where folding would be too weak but jamming and create FE could be hazardous to our tournament health. As they can play perfectly against us. Fold all worst hands and call when they are ahead.

    I assume this comes down to balance and should be done with a polarized range?

    hard to say in a vacum but yes if you have draw+SDV taking more passive line may be better BUT you have to understand the actual situation you are in, that is what is their likely range? how much FE can you create? how often will they let you get to SD? how often will you win if they let you have cheap SH?........

    forget balance at low and mid-stakes live poker - instead focus on exploiting them

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