Shortstack Encounters

tengusteeltengusteel Red Chipper Posts: 119 ✭✭
edited March 2015 in General Concepts
Since the release of Doug's Video on Shortstacking, I have seen more players using this strategy in games where I play. I thought I would share an encounter with everyone to point out how brutal variance can be. There are some flaws here too. One, the minimum buy in 1/2 at Mandalay is $100 so Shorty is deeper than ideal at 50bb. However, since this game has lots of button straddles, I guess the effective stack of Shorty is only 25bb. Two, Short stacking may need some adjustments if Button Straddles are allowed.

Hand 1: First Hand after sitting down for Shorty
1/2 Mandalay Bay
Button Straddles for $4
3 Callers Limp around to HERO in HJ stack ~$440 raises to $12 with :Ad :As
Shorty in CO with $100 (First Hand since taking seat) 3bets to $35 with :Qc :Qd
It folds around to HERO who 4bets to $65
Shorty shoves as per the strategy, and HERO calls.
Aces hold up. Shorty Rebuys for min buy of $100.

Hand 2: Second Hand after sitting down for Shorty
1/2 Mandalay Bay
BU Straddles for $4
The entire table just calls the straddle around to Shorty expecting BU to raise.
Shorty in HJ with $100 (Rebuy) Shoves with :Ah :Qh
Folds around to MP with $95 who calls with :9d :9?
The 9's hold up.
Shorty gets up disgusted, says "Well, that was brief!"
Snaps at HERO who points out he has $5 change back say, "I know how the game is played"

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts who short stacks. How often does this nightmare scenario work? Actually, I thought Shorty should rebuy again because of his earned image, he was likely to get the kinds of loose calls that he wanted.

Comments

  • ButchButch Red Chipper Posts: 163 ✭✭
    Mostly I buy-in for $100 these days in 1/2 NL. Where I play its $100 - $300 buy-in and I used to always buy-in max. However, I like starting short now. I can get a feel for the table as I chip-up. I can always top off to $300 if its loaded with fish but, I can't take any off its a terrible table full of red chip forum grinders. There is often a wait to change tables or even get a seat on weekend hours when I play most so I am kind of stuck at any table I get for awhile.

    Not sure shorty is shoving 'per the strategy' on second hand. A raise here yes. $35 maybe and he still has room to get a way if 3 bet. And nines is going to call and not re-raise most times. And like as not even when nines are ahead, post flop action is going to tilt most pots to shorty. Any over card and a bet from shorty is going to be hard on the nines.

    Does Doug's video really suggest that shorty should shove this spot? Even short stacks need to play the flop sometimes. I cannot see how its all shove or fold pre. There's not enough info here to shove AQ suited. Limps in straddle pots are not a good indication of weakness as are unstraddled limps. As you say, its often expected straddler is raising.

    I think he had to play QQ hand just like he did. Its just the way it goes if he had bought in at $300 he could call the $65 and play defensively or set-mine but, with $35 left after calling its pretty much all-in or fold. I could not fold QQ here. I am all-in though, I am not loving it. I might fold to some players who I know are never re-raising without KK+ but not 1st hand with unknowns.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,684 -
    I like short stacking and recommend it to all learning players. I did not advocate shove or fold pre.

    I advocated playing a super tight range and betting/raising as much pre as they will call. Sometimes that will be a shove, but very rarely.

    So for instance with a $4 straddle and three limpers, I see $20 in the pot (including our call) I would make it something like $20-$25. As much as I think they will call. Shipping $100 is too big, the raise to $12 was way too small.

    If this $20 gets raised, then 4-bet shipping is fine.

    I target pot sized raises when there are a few limpers. More if I think I will get action.

    With stack sizes three-bet shipping is unlikely to be the right size with 50bb. Four bet shipping is likely reasonable though.

    Check the archives for more details.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • AcesaladAcesalad Red Chipper Posts: 240 ✭✭
    What video is this? Is it one that is in the archives on redchippoker.com? Also, is it a complete video on short stack strategy?
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,684 -
    Acesalad wrote:
    What video is this? Is it one that is in the archives on redchippoker.com? Also, is it a complete video on short stack strategy?

    The first video I made for the site was on short stacking.

    http://redchippoker.com/store/april-201 ... o-archive/

    My girl, Laura, is becoming a short stacking, hit-and-run artist here in Las Vegas since we moved. She is incredibly disciplined and wildly aggressive the tiny percentage of hands she plays. It works very well. I have met guys that are doing this at much bigger stakes with great effect also.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Butch wrote:
    I think he had to play QQ hand just like he did. Its just the way it goes if he had bought in at $300 he could call the $65 and play defensively or set-mine but, with $35 left after calling its pretty much all-in or fold.

    I'm not sure that really changes things much. Set mining for $65 with a $300 stack isn't really a viable strategy. Getting min-raised in that situation rarely happens if villain has AK - at least I just don't see that play in my games. I've seen villain make bigger reraises and mostly villain calls, but I don't recall seeing a min-raise there.

    So the only "playing defensively" strategy that makes sense - seeing a flop and shoving if no A or K comes - might not be a viable strategy either. So you are probably back to shove or fold in that situation too. The pot is going to be about $140 and you have $235 behind on the flop. And I agree it's just a crappy situation.

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