What would you do?

Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
Red Chippers I need your opinion. I was playing $1-2-3 NL at Bay 101 today and I ran into a very hard decision.

I was in the Big Blind and I had KQo. UTG limps and it folded around table to the Small Blind, whom also calls the limp. Action to me and I raised the hand to $18 (around my standard raise). FP calls and small blind calls.

Here is some background on the two players. UTG is a NIT and will play any hand from 23o to AA. Small Blind is a LAG player whom mostly plays tournament games and typically raises about 80% of the hands he plays.

Small Blind checks and I lead out with a C-bet of $40. UTG immediately announces raise to $145 (total). Action to Small Blind who folds.

Action back to me and I think, I attempt to ask questions with no response. I analyze the hand and immediately think he could be on a draw, but I also realized he played a previous set the same way. I couldn't imagine him having a range in this hand of AQ, QQ, JJ or QJ. I could only think draw or set.

After about a minute he calls the floor and asks for the clock on me. I had 1 minute to act.


What would you do? Did I play this hand poorly? I will give you the outcome when I hear your responses.

Thanks RedChippers!

Comments

  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Thinking set of 3s (to be clear)
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Sorry typing too fast. Flop was Qs-Js-3c
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭
    Joshua K wrote: »
    UTG is a NIT and will play any hand from 23o to AA.

    This is kind of the opposite of a nit, so I think we'd need more info on him. Also, how does he tend to play postflop. You mentioned he had played a set like this previously. Is he very passive once the money starts going in?

  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    UTG typically will call until the turn. Once the turn hits, he is much more passive.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭
    Joshua K wrote: »
    UTG typically will call until the turn. Once the turn hits, he is much more passive.

    Sorry, but this is again a conundrum. Passive means he will call, more or less.
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Sorry still new to this. UTG is known to call to the river about 50% of the time. I have never seen him raise on the flop prior, except the one hand he had a set.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11
    To give answers, it depends very much on your reads provided, and your description of opponents.

    In this hand, the SB doesn't matter much since he's no longer involved in the action.

    We will assume that the UTG player is a loose, passive player. In other words, he plays a lot of hands preflop and even continues with many of them, but generally doesn't raise unless he has a quite strong hand. It's hard to know what he has because he plays a wide range, but if he gets aggressive, you should be able to narrow it down quickly later. Usually players like this will not get aggressive on draws. That's important in this hand because of the wet board and number of draws present.

    Not sure why you'd remove hands such as QJ or JJ from his range. These are typically hands that a loose passive player will play, and how he will play them. The same could be said for QQ at times, and to a lesser extent even AA. If he doesn't raise or reraise AA preflop, then he's more likely to not be raising it postflop either. But some players will do this as a slowplay, then "spring their trap" finally on the flop. But we can probably call this unlikely.

    So it looks like his mostly likely holdings are QJ, JJ, and 33, possibly even QQ and to a lesser extent AA or KK. That's assuming he's a passive player and passive players don't play their draws hard. It's hard to imagine a passive player being this aggressive with a hand that cannot beat KQ on this board. He would have to be doing this with QT or worse, and that doesn't seem likely. So typically this should be an easy fold.
  • solDragonsolDragon Red Chipper Posts: 50 ✭✭
    I see a lot of loose passive players limp with AQ. Why did you take AQ, QQ, JJ, QJ out of his range? Have you ever seen him 3bet? Even without a 3bet, he is probably not making this play with a hand that is behind KQ.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭
    solDragon wrote: »
    I see a lot of loose passive players limp with AQ.

    Yes, sorry, meant to include that in my range as well, I forgot. Although that one is a little less likely to go bananas postflop than the others.
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Thank you both for your opinions. I was struggling to see whether or not I made a reasonable lay down in this situation. I took the pocket pairs out of his range due to previous couple hands where he raised to$10 for premium hands.

    I didn't feel he would limp with others as a result. A set of threes seemed more reasonable because I felt from my reads that he would be more likely to limp and then call to see the flop three way, hoping to hit his set.

    In the end, my mind said call, but my lips could not make the move, which I find to be an issue occasionally. He ended up showing and he had A10o for the bluff.

    I was not upset at his play, but more upset that I had the right read, but could not make the appropriate play.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭
    So moral of the story is that your read of nit and passive were probably based on too little information or wrong conclusion. If your reads were correct, then it comes under the heading of "no one never bluffs" and strange things happen.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭✭
    I think we're missing the biggest piece of key information--stack sizes. What is the effective stack size?

    If villain's raise is putting you all in, then this isn't a tough decision at all--you're playing for it. I assume the stack sizes aren't very deep. In fact, I think the stack sizes would need to be at least $300 before this even starts to become a difficult decision.

  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Joshua K wrote: »
    UTG is a NIT and will play any hand from 23o to AA.

    This is kind of the opposite of a nit, so I think we'd need more info on him. Also, how does he tend to play postflop. You mentioned he had played a set like this previously. Is he very passive once the money starts going in?

    I still haven't come across a NIT who is limping 32o from UTG. If that is considered a NIT, then I don't know what I am. Super-Ultra-Tight-Ass. SUTA.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11
    Apparently he is more loose/tricky, in which case on such a wet board this can easily become a shove. Probably half the hand examples here become easy decisions given the correct range and attributes of the opponent. You can also justify anything you want to do by simply assigning the attributes you want to make that decision the proper one.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,778 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Josh, in addition to all this great advice you are getting, your hand history is missing stack sizes. Your knee jerk reaction will be to think this is trivial or an oversight but in fact it shows that your real challenge will be to have a plan for your hands that revolves more closely around fundamentals. Stacks are more important than all the other information you took time to provide, most of which turned out to be confused anyway. So you the player are presently focused on the slippery side of guessing particular player ranges when hard planning concepts are right in front of you to work with.

    For instance, if you intend to b/f TPGK there are stacks where is makes your fold or even your bet a massive error, and other stacks where it is not. To get out of the realm of guessing at your strategy, focus on this. One hand is never important, but it can point you to the right things - that is the real value of HHs.
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    I think we're missing the biggest piece of key information--stack sizes. What is the effective stack size?

    If villain's raise is putting you all in, then this isn't a tough decision at all--you're playing for it. I assume the stack sizes aren't very deep. In fact, I think the stack sizes would need to be at least $300 before this even starts to become a difficult decision.

    Prior to the hand, I was sitting at $365 and he was sitting at $315.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 818 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for posting, and great advice all the way through.

    One other thought: why raise pre-flop from the BB here? Do you have a strong indication that you'll get two folds? Probably not given your description of UTG, and he seems unlikely to fold often enough to a cbet or double-barrel to make it profitable. Put that all together, and this isn't a hand that I'd love to play for a big pot out of position against a LAG.
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Thanks for posting, and great advice all the way through.

    One other thought: why raise pre-flop from the BB here? Do you have a strong indication that you'll get two folds? Probably not given your description of UTG, and he seems unlikely to fold often enough to a cbet or double-barrel to make it profitable. Put that all together, and this isn't a hand that I'd love to play for a big pot out of position against a LAG.

    That makes great sense. Still looking to improve my game. I was hoping to steal the pot, but with that information I had on the player this choice makes sense. Checking in this spot would have been an optimal choice and keeping the pot small (I can see that now). I need to be careful in my choice of range and when to take a stab at taking the pot the down. Thank you for your advice.

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