Was my line way off?

uglytunauglytuna Red Chipper Posts: 130 ✭✭
Please tell me (the Hero) if my line was optimal.

Shared this with a few friends and they don't like my lead on Flop and my C/R on the Turn. I can explain my line but I want to know if it was an optimal line. If not how should this hand be played properly. Granted it worked out for me in this hand but was this hand played sub-par?

This villain is a solid player and was playing TAG at this stage of the tournament. To his own admission he agrees he should of check-back the Turn. Please discuss this too?

Seat #9 is the button
Seat 6: Escoella (9840 in chips)
Seat 7: UglyTuna23 (10975 in chips)
Seat 8: scn78 (16171 in chips)
Seat 9: TheGramuel (13014 in chips)
Escoella: posts the ante 5
UglyTuna23: posts the ante 5
scn78: posts the ante 5
TheGramuel: posts the ante 5
Escoella: posts small blind 30
UglyTuna23: posts big blind 60
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to UglyTuna23 [7c Kc]
scn78: folds
TheGramuel: raises 120 to 180
Escoella: folds
UglyTuna23: calls 120
*** FLOP *** [Jc 7d 7s]
UglyTuna23: bets 300
TheGramuel: calls 300
*** TURN *** [Jc 7d 7s] [Ac]
UglyTuna23: checks
TheGramuel: bets 479
UglyTuna23: raises 841 to 1320
TheGramuel: calls 841
*** RIVER *** [Jc 7d 7s Ac] [2c]
UglyTuna23: bets 2940
TheGramuel said, "wow really T"
TheGramuel said, "you just have a 7 huh"
TheGramuel said, "whatever"
TheGramuel: calls 2940
*** SHOW DOWN ***
UglyTuna23: shows [7c Kc] (a flush, Ace high)
TheGramuel: mucks hand
UglyTuna23 collected 9530 from pot
TheGramuel said, "have it all"



  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    What's your logic behind checking the turn? Did you think he was floating the flop often? Did you think he would bet Jx if you checked the turn?
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  • uglytunauglytuna Red Chipper Posts: 130 ✭✭
    edited May 2017
    I thought if I lead out on Flop I am repping lots of bad Jacks. Now an Ace Turns it hits the V's range. I was pretty certain he would bet and elect to go for a C/R. I also figured it was a great card for him to rep if check too. Maybe he spazz outs?!?

    I understand now he can check behind a lot here.

    I gues hand like mind I should bet bet flop, turn and river. Should that be the optimal line?
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    uglytuna wrote: »
    I thought if I lead out on Flop I am repping lots of bad Jacks.

    And how does this exploit your opponent?
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  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Q: would you really ever lead a bad jack, or any jack?
  • uglytunauglytuna Red Chipper Posts: 130 ✭✭
    My line was to create doubt and confusion.

    I defend K7c in the BB and hit gin on the flop.

    I generally lead Into my trips (2 out of 3 times).

    Only caveat, 7x are in my range when I defend BB. Which is another reason why I like my lead better. Lots of players will think I would just C/C with a 7. Deception was the plan. Donk betting could be interpreted as a Jack, 66,88,99 etc. betting for protection or probe bet.

    If I instead c/c flop and c/r or lead the turn I know this V can determine I am holding a 7.

    When I lead the flop, I personally think I am repping a Jack. Sure players can have 7x and PP hands in their range.

    I was hoping the V reads my lead as a Jack?

    I have worst Jacks in my range then you the V.

    The Turn is a sick card for both of our holdings.

    I'm was not certain the V called my flop bet with a Jack but with the Ac in the Turn, it smashes the V's range. So I'm trying to build a pot and ready to get all my chips in. I did this with a C/R I think it's just better to bet and barrel. Can't risk of my V checking back a losing a street of value. I guess with his exact holding he is paying me but against his entire range this is prolly not optimal.

    As played, I elected for a C/R and happy to pile with the nut FD.

    The River card is scare card that it hurt my action.

    At the time I love my line especially vs a player who can hand read really well.

    Do you think take a nonstandard lines can be more profitable against good thinking players as these line won't make sense? So if they have a hand with showdown Equity you will get paid off.

    Against higher thinking level players I try to take the non-standard line provided it's optimal and not losing value.

    Some time I admit I get too fancy for my own good that I look foolish. I'm working on that.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, I didn't think your line was for his confidence and safety. If he knows you're a "thinking" player as well, my point is that you don't have a jack here very often, not on the flop, definitely not on the turn.

    To answer your question, alternative lines are great and you likely do well with them. However, this line worked mainly because your assumptions are wrong. Villain is not a TAG, pays off light, and the x/r should have forced him out if your read about him was correct. As it stands, you played it great against such a curious player, and did in fact exploit his tendencies.
  • uglytunauglytuna Red Chipper Posts: 130 ✭✭
    Do you think I should generally lead flop, bet turn and river?

    When should we be check raising? Against LAG players and draws? Or is it too situational?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think a jack would not x/r the turn - it makes little sense, but would it lead turn instead? No. The ace fills his range not yours. Basically you owned this guy for the max by correctly checking this bad card for your range, and then raising, but my constructive criticism is that your assumption of what you are repping and what he is thinking is off - and that is what got you paid. You got more because he likely did hit the turn, even though a jack would x/f or x/c against this card that villain can rep.

    Bets and check raises have specific meanings when it comes down to theory, so I would investigate that first for baseline understanding. Then move to situational deviations.

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