Full House vs Full House Did I play this right?

Ben GBen G Red Chipper Posts: 4
Home game Tourney
20 players top 5 in the money
9 players left
Blinds 500/1k
Hero Stack: ~~ 20k
Villain stack: ~~25k
(Both above average stacks at this point)
*Villain is loose pre flop aggressive post flop friend who can't stand losing to me, always does what he can to take down the pot vs me*
6-handed. Hero has :4h:4c in BB, utg +1 limps, villain in SB Calls, Hero checks. Flop :Ks:Kc:Qh
Villain check, hero bet 2k, utg+1 folds villain calls
Turn :6h villain bets 2k I hang on for one more street getting a good price and hoping villain checks river and I can win at showdown
River :4s
villain bets 4K
hero min raises 8k
villain shoves for about 16k more
Hero has about 5-6k behind, goes in the tank and calls. Villain shows :Kd:Qc shakes my hand as soon as he shows and says "nice hand".

Should hero just called on the river instead of going for value from a slow played king or possibly ace queen, queen 10?

Does hero call all of his chips off in the end? Thoughts?

*Hero and Villain are both High schoolers*

Comments

  • Ben GBen G Red Chipper Posts: 4
    Addition:
    I was thinking Villain doesn't flat KQ pre flop as well as AK and AQ which I beat so it looked like either K6 K4 6s (all I lose to) or any kingx hand with a couple of missed draws and queens getting out of line
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,876 -
    edited May 2017
    Ben G wrote: »
    Home game Tourney
    20 players top 5 in the money
    9 players left
    Blinds 500/1k
    Hero Stack: ~~ 20k
    Villain stack: ~~25k
    (Both above average stacks at this point)
    *Villain is loose pre flop aggressive post flop friend who can't stand losing to me, always does what he can to take down the pot vs me*
    6-handed. Hero has :4h:4c in BB, utg +1 limps, villain in SB Calls, Hero checks. Flop :Ks:Kc:Qh
    Villain check,
    hero bet 2k,
    utg+1 folds villain calls

    You have 20BB, you are second of three to a limped flop.
    Why are you putting 10% of your stack into this pot?
    Ben G wrote: »
    Turn :6h villain bets 2k I hang on for one more street getting a good price and hoping villain checks river and I can win at showdown

    Villain calls on this board then fires another 10% of your original stack for 2BB making 3+2+2+2 = 9BB. This is tempting odds, but do not dribble out your last blinds.

    Did you consider that you are easily beat right at this moment? What are you hoping he is firing out with here? How does that balance with all the things he could be firing with that beat you?

    With 20BB, every BB is precious. Seriously precious.

    You could be sitting with 19BB in the SB if you check-folded flop.

    You could be sitting with 17BB in the SB if you check-folded the turn.

    Your choices instead lead you to being OOP with an underpair, OOP with 15BB on the turn in an 11BB pot.

    By far, the first, then the second situation are far superior to the third.

    The river is certainly a magic card that stacks you. However, you should never have been in that spot to begin with.

    Tough love time.

    Go out like a lion, using push/fold and Nash to fight and have fold equity. You did not go out like a lion, you went out like a lamb.

    20BB is too much to just shove over his Button limp, but that would have been more defensible play than this.

    Your opponent made a huge mistake pre by limping in on the button with KQ. You had your free chance to flop a set, missed. That is the mistake that will eventually sink him if (and only if) you play it right post.

    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Ben GBen G Red Chipper Posts: 4
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    Ben G wrote: »
    Home game Tourney
    20 players top 5 in the money
    9 players left
    Blinds 500/1k
    Hero Stack: ~~ 20k
    Villain stack: ~~25k
    (Both above average stacks at this point)
    *Villain is loose pre flop aggressive post flop friend who can't stand losing to me, always does what he can to take down the pot vs me*
    6-handed. Hero has :4h:4c in BB, utg +1 limps, villain in SB Calls, Hero checks. Flop :Ks:Kc:Qh
    Villain check,
    hero bet 2k,
    utg+1 folds villain calls

    You have 20BB, you are second of three to a limped flop.
    Why are you putting 10% of your stack into this pot?
    Ben G wrote: »
    Turn :6h villain bets 2k I hang on for one more street getting a good price and hoping villain checks river and I can win at showdown

    Villain calls on this board then fires another 10% of your original stack for 2BB making 3+2+2+2 = 9BB. This is tempting odds, but do not dribble out your last blinds.

    Did you consider that you are easily beat right at this moment? What are you hoping he is firing out with here? How does that balance with all the things he could be firing with that beat you?

    With 20BB, every BB is precious. Seriously precious.

    You could be sitting with 19BB in the SB if you check-folded flop.

    You could be sitting with 17BB in the SB if you check-folded the turn.

    Your choices instead lead you to being OOP with an underpair, OOP with 15BB on the turn in an 11BB pot.

    By far, the first, then the second situation are far superior to the third.

    The river is certainly a magic card that stacks you. However, you should never have been in that spot to begin with.

    Tough love time.

    Go out like a lion, using push/fold and Nash to fight and have fold equity. You did not go out like a lion, you went out like a lamb.

    20BB is too much to just shove over his Button limp, but that would have been more defensible play than this.

    Your opponent made a huge mistake pre by limping in on the button with KQ. You had your free chance to flop a set, missed. That is the mistake that will eventually sink him if (and only if) you play it right post.

    Makes some good sense, villain was in small blind not button by the way, so I had position. The crazy thing is the blinds were raised from 300/600 to 500/1k a few hands before, so everyone at our table had less than 25 big blinds (hero and villain were two largest stacks at table). So there was no way I would jam 44 in that spot.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,876 -
    At what number of BB are you willing to jam 44 pre over that Button limp?
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Ben GBen G Red Chipper Posts: 4

    Doug Hull wrote: »
    At what number of BB are you willing to jam 44 pre over that Button limp?

    Around 12


  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    Ben G wrote: »
    Home game Tourney
    20 players top 5 in the money
    9 players left
    Blinds 500/1k
    Hero Stack: ~~ 20k
    Villain stack: ~~25k
    (Both above average stacks at this point)
    *Villain is loose pre flop aggressive post flop friend who can't stand losing to me, always does what he can to take down the pot vs me*
    6-handed. Hero has :4h:4c in BB, utg +1 limps, villain in SB Calls, Hero checks. Flop :Ks:Kc:Qh
    Villain check,
    hero bet 2k,
    utg+1 folds villain calls

    You have 20BB, you are second of three to a limped flop.
    Why are you putting 10% of your stack into this pot?
    Ben G wrote: »
    Turn :6h villain bets 2k I hang on for one more street getting a good price and hoping villain checks river and I can win at showdown

    Go out like a lion, using push/fold and Nash to fight and have fold equity. You did not go out like a lion, you went out like a lamb.

    20BB is too much to just shove over his Button limp, but that would have been more defensible play than this.

    Your opponent made a huge mistake pre by limping in on the button with KQ. You had your free chance to flop a set, missed. That is the mistake that will eventually sink him if (and only if) you play it right post.

    easy shove pre

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2017
    20BB might seem like a lot to shove with 44, but normally shoving pre is to pick up the blinds from a non-blind position. Here, the pot is double that amount and it adds 15% to your stack, not 7%. If instead it were folded to us in hijack, for example, I'm not sure what the play would be.
  • SaintsTigersSaintsTigers Red Chipper Posts: 244 ✭✭
    edited June 2017
    I'd just complete from the small blind, hope to flop a set and double , and quietly fold if I miss the flop.

    A pre-flop shove may be profitable but it's not optimal. You'd be risking 20 bbs to win 4bbs . A 24 bb stack doesn't give us that much more stack utility than a 20bb stack. And this is a home game where players may well call off pretty wide. Plus there's an opportunity cost - if we jam pre we can't flop a set and double up. I wouldn't risk my tournament life to try to win 4 bigs here.

    I think my cutoff for jamming would be around 8 bigs. We have good enough fold equity, and picking up 3.5 bigs uncontested is really good for our stack.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You're second in chips, so it's pretty unlikely you're risking your tournament life. You're saying this is a home game tourney, but Ben is one of the home game tourney players, and he just said there's "no way" he's risking shoving with 44 here. So there are probably others feeling the same way. Besides, he's in the BB and no one has shown any strength at all.

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