I don't want to fool myself into thinking that I played this correctly. Please advise.

DabbyDabby Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
edited June 2017 in Live Poker Hands
1/3 Cash game. Villain has been pretty tight most of the night. Doesn't seem like a very good player. But he's been social. This is about 3 hours into the session. I had recently caught some cards to win some big pots.

Villain stack size ~$400. Hero Covers.

Hero in SB: :As :Td
Villain UTG: Raise to $15

2 callers (UTG+2 and MP) to Hero

Hero calls $15 and BB folds
I don't love flatting with ATo in a multi-way pot. However, most of the hands during this session went multi-way to flop regardless of raise size. The most of the table loves to call with any 2 suited cards, or any Ace.

Pot is $63 to flop.
Flop: :Ad :Js :Ac

Hero checks.

Villain bets $35

2 players fold.

Hero says “You really flopped a full house, huh?”

Hero tanks for a minute, then calls.
My thought process for this call is pretty simple. I think my ace is good most of the time. I think villain would C-Bet with just about any hand.

Villain laughs and says "He says I have a full house, then calls anyway."

Pot is $133 to turn

Turn comes :QC:

Hero tanks, then checks.
When tanking I thought about leading out, to ensure that I don't lose a street of value with my trips, but I feel like villain will barrel this card. The card could have also hit him(KQ, QJ), and he wants to bet it.

Villain bets $45

Hero says “you think your jacks are good?”
While very possible, I don't think he actually has jacks here, I was talking just to talk. This may be some sort of tell on my part. I might need to step back and review the spots in which I seem to talk often.

Hero calls
I make this call because this card may have hit some of his range, it also hits my range too. I think could be in this spot with some AQ, KT, KQ. Does my line make sense this far? I also pick up a gutshot, and my ace is still pretty good I think. Not to mention I'm getting almost 3:1.


Pot is $223 to river

River comes :8h

Board reads: :Ad :Js :Ac :QC: :8h

What do you recommend I do? Please write some sort of response before checking the spoiler.
Hero tanks for a minute, then leads out $150 bet.
Villain saw me count out the $50 in chips, stack them up, then reach back up and grab a black($100) off the top of my stack, then add it to my bet.
Villain says "You just had to add that black."

Here's my thought process at the time. I'm thinking back and realizing that some of it's completely wrong. This is why I'm here.

At the time, I wanted to bet here for a couple reasons. First is that if my aces are good, I don't want to lose value. But this bet is so big and the board is so loaded that I'm not likely to get a lot of calls by worse hands. But I could get called by maybe a worse ace.

But I also want to bet to put villain to a decision here. If I check, it shows weakness and would allow him to bomb. Which would put me in a terrible spot, and I don't want to have to make that decision. I also I think would play this exact way if I had something like AQ, or QQ, and be betting this size for value. (Though I'd likely 3-bet preflop with QQ, I don't believe he'd think that deep into the game.)

Also I bet that way I could control the size of the pot. This guy has shown no propensity to re-raise anyone at any point throughout the night. So I thought that if he does have a better hand, it's better that I lead out with $150, rather than let him bomb for $200+. (in hindsight, I think this bet size actually forces him to come back over the top all in with any sort of hand, given his SPR.)

Villain says "How lucky did you get on me man? You hit that Queen huh? Queens? Ace Queen? I fold"
Villain folds

Villain shows :Jc :Jd

Terrible play on his part. I'm aware. But how was my play as a whole? How was my thinking? Be as critical as you like.
Tagged:

Comments

  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 546 ✭✭✭
    I don't like all the talking, but that's just me. I get that it's part of the game and can be fun.

    I'd repop PF to try and take it down. I'd prefer to go to the flop headsup. Try and find the pain point where people do start laying down to bigger 3bets.

    As played, check raise the flop. Why not get your value? If you get reraised then you can figure out whether you're dominated, and every chance V will have QJ, JT, KK, QQ, maybe even 99, maybe Axs.

    Turn: You're playing very passively into a tight player. What does he think you have? His turn bet is small. Is it a call-me bet or is it a scared bet? I feel like at some point in here you should be raising this hand. You have trip A. What else could you want to bet?
    If he was loose and spraying money around then maybe I'd check/call check/call to induce, but you've shown interest, he's underrepped his hand through verbals ("He thinks I have the house and calls anyway.") so somewhere in here I think you have to take initiative.

    If I was V at this point I think if I just had Jx or QQ/KK, I'd probably shut down on the river. So I think hero should lead out half pot size bet and then fold to a big raise.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,343 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    Don't like the preflop call. You get into situations like this. You're way ahead (and can't make much money) or way behind (and like preflop, continue to put in money with a poorly playable hand.) I also don't like the table talk :)

    You're reduced to playing passively and OOP with a hand for which you have no idea where you stand. As played, your river bet amounts to a bluff, and you think your "ace is still pretty good", and yet you expect to get paid off by worse (presumably). I don't see the logic in it. You seem to be saying that the Q hits villain's range, but he should know it hits your range too. Does this mean you think you have a range advantage over him in this situation? I think you're either crushed here, or in a situation where you can make little money. Running into A9 is going to be the uncommon exception, not the rule, and you can't even beat that (not to mention A2).
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,636 ✭✭✭✭
    Dabby wrote: »
    But I could get called by maybe a worse ace.

    Worse ace chop the pot with you.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,343 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Worse ace chop the pot with you.

    Yeah, AT is the worst possible ace you can have on this board.

  • DabbyDabby Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    Yeah, the whole hand felt off pretty much from start to finish. As far as pot size goes, it was one of the biggest ones of the night, but raking in that pot felt pretty grimy.

    Also; I don't do a ton of table talk, unless it's people in which I've already been talking to outside of the current hand.

    My line is pretty bad throughout the whole hand.

    As far as not raising preflop or on the flop, I guess it falls on table dynamic. And this is probably a bad way to play, but I tend to fall in-line with the table dynamic most of the time. I.E. no one else is 3-betting, so I won't. Or not a lot of people are re-raising, so I won't. I think this becomes a problem in a lot of the games I play. Any advice on this bit would be good too.

    As for the 3-betting specifically, if I'm doing it with a hand like ATo, I don't know what to do if I'm called. That's a pretty weak spot in my game I suppose.

    But as played (and I'm sure none of you would be in the spot that I was in), what do you do on this river? Is my bet poor and just giving away money most of the time?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,343 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think his fold is not to be expected, I'll put it that way.
  • PatrickPatrick Red Chipper Posts: 50 ✭✭
    Your reasons for your actions aren't matching up with your previous reads or the board texture.

    Preflop: "Villain has been pretty tight most of the night" -- so you call his UTG raise in the SB with ATo? How well does that play OOP against his tight range? Or in a MW pot, for that matter?

    Flop: "I think my ace is good most of the time" -- that depends on how tight of a range you give him preflop and how often he cbets. FWIW, after flopping trips and facing less than a half-pot bet, I'd probably call, too, unless he's *really* tight and doesn't bluff.

    Turn: "I also pick up a gutshot, and my ace is still pretty good I think" -- your ace is now playing for a chop and your gutshot is worthless (you won't get paid off by a worse hand if you catch a king). Is he the type to double barrel as a bluff?
  • DabbyDabby Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    Patrick wrote: »
    Preflop: "Villain has been pretty tight most of the night" -- so you call his UTG raise in the SB with ATo? How well does that play OOP against his tight range? Or in a MW pot, for that matter?
    He's tight as in not generally not wanting to play big pots, and folding a lot post flop. Is there a better word here rather than tight?
    Patrick wrote: »
    Flop: "I think my ace is good most of the time" -- that depends on how tight of a range you give him preflop and how often he cbets. FWIW, after flopping trips and facing less than a half-pot bet, I'd probably call, too, unless he's *really* tight and doesn't bluff.
    Like I mentioned in the previous quote, he seems to give up often post flop. Often assuming the worst(as his verbals imply.) I had seen him cbet the flop, then fold on the turn pretty often throughout the night. Had this been something that I thought of at the time of the turn, I could have lead out into him, or check raised him.
    Patrick wrote: »
    Turn: "I also pick up a gutshot, and my ace is still pretty good I think" -- your ace is now playing for a chop and your gutshot is worthless (you won't get paid off by a worse hand if you catch a king). Is he the type to double barrel as a bluff?
    Not sure if he's the type to double barrel as a bluff. But given the fact that I checked, I think he's the type to often take the check as me "not wanting to bet bc I don't love my hand".

    I think most of what's going on here is I'm not thinking the way I should when I'm at the table because I'm reverting to "instinctual poker". I already started a thread about that, and I thought I was making progress on it. But here I am, not thinking about the "story" of the hands. The reasons behind the bets, or reasons behind my actions.

    I often see people talking about having a plan. Both when going to the table, and going into a hand. But I'm not able to do it and I'm not sure why.

    Back to studying!
  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 546 ✭✭✭
    @Dabby You know enough to post a hand that you otherwise won, so that's a great sign. Too often we think we're gods when we rake in big hands but you can see how a subjectively successful hand was otherwise.

    RE table talk: I hate the table talk that is motivated by some sort of goofy mind game. Most people don't know how to act in a way that is convincing to then it becomes obvious what they're doing. I get why it's played, but I won't engage. But at the same time I hate robot play, the glasses and hoods and dead face staring into the pot. Again I get why people do it but I won't play like that either. I think both styles are overthinking things at our level - very few players are intuitive enough to connect the dots on facial or verbal tells at these stakes, unless you play together A LOT!

    RE: going with table dynamics. Not 3betting because no one else is is pretty well the complete opposite to how you want to play. You don't want to do what everyone else does. Check out Ed's series The Course - it starts with this fundamental theory: if everyone plays the same way, then everyone ends up losing in the long run, because of the rake. You always want to play different from Vs. Recognize what the table dymanic is and play against it. It's much easier to learn how to do this online, because you won't have to face all the grumbling and comments (you can just turn off the online chat) - but at the same time knowing when people are getting steamy is good, you want to know how you're changing dynamic is affecting them. Doug has awesome ideas about this stuff.

    Re: Playing AT out of the blinds - def check out some videos on blind play. This is a weakness in my game too so I have no advice but it's a crucial skill to get in hand.
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    My friend -- fold pre.
  • PatrickPatrick Red Chipper Posts: 50 ✭✭
    Dabby wrote: »
    He's tight as in not generally not wanting to play big pots, and folding a lot post flop. Is there a better word here rather than tight?

    "Tight" is too vague of a term. The way you used it in the OP, I assumed you meant his preflop range -- like, he didn't get involved in many hands (even preflop).

    For hand histories and even when thinking about players at the table, you should try to make more specific reads, and definitely separate preflop tendencies from postflop.
    For example, "He's pretty loose/passive preflop, plays fit-or-fold postflop, but will try one-and-done cbets on flops as the PFR." Or "he's nitty preflop and won't get into big pots without the nuts".
  • PatrickPatrick Red Chipper Posts: 50 ✭✭
    Dabby wrote: »
    I often see people talking about having a plan. Both when going to the table, and going into a hand. But I'm not able to do it and I'm not sure why.

    It takes practice and experience, but over time it gets easier. Start off by trying to understand what your plan is for the hand preflop.

    In this specific hand -- when you decide to call with ATo in the SB against the UTG raiser and 2 other callers, what is the best scenario? Are you hoping to outflop everyone? If so, will you get paid? How often will you get a flop you like but have the second-best hand? If you miss, are you going to be able to steal it away?

    A lot of that work will come from studying off the table, where you get a better understanding of hand values in specific situations. If I was in your place preflop, I would assume that ATo is not going to outflop anyone very often (even an A-high flop is worrisome, if the UTG is tight), and I don't want to try steal the pot postflop from 3 other players. So I'd either fold (probably my default) or 3bet (if you think the UTG will fold enough to make it a profitable bluff).
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    I'd give this hand up preflop. Playing ATo OOP against 3 other players isn't ideal, and I don't think you're deep enough to start 3 betting here--especially with the UTG open--I assume this player is opening with a fairly strong range.

    Next, this table talk sounds like a massive tell. Villain bets about 1/2 pot and you're asking if they flopped a boat, tank and call. Yeah, 99% of people taking that action have an Ace.

    Going with my thinking that your hand is now essentially face up, I'd be surprised if villain is betting the turn with a hand that doesn't beat trips. However, he is betting small, and maybe they aren't reading into your table talk, so it's possible he's betting again with something like KQ. They could also realize that it's unlikely you have a strong Ace, and decide to just string you along with some small bets.

    On the river, I'd probably check again. If villain bets large on the river, you're most likely beat. Very few players are opening from UTG preflop and triple barreling with worse than AT here. Plus, all worse aces are chopping this pot except for A8--which I doubt this player has in their range. In fact, they probably don't have any worse Aces in their range anyway.
    So I thought that if he does have a better hand, it's better that I lead out with $150, rather than let him bomb for $200+.
    Are you planning to bet $150 and then fold if they jam for their remaining $300???

    I can't believe this player folded--you got very lucky to come across such a NIT.


  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 727 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    @Dabby
    I think it's very important to assign a range to villains when in game.

    I pay close attention to the opener and immediately classify villains range as tight,medium, loose. These terms mean something to me. I can actually see the range I've assigned on the hand chart in Equilab (that's what I use). Once you identify a range it will tie into your off table study and you will have an idea of actions to take with your range/hands.

    Here's the secret: you will never be right with these ranges. However over time you will realize that you will be close most of the time and that will be enough

    Plug in what you think villain's opening range is into Equilab and put in your hand. Run the equities for every street. Many answers will be revealed

    PS- FWIW don't play to the table dynamic, be the table dynamic Grasshopper
  • DabbyDabby Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    Going with my thinking that your hand is now essentially face up, I'd be surprised if villain is betting the turn with a hand that doesn't beat trips. However, he is betting small, and maybe they aren't reading into your table talk, so it's possible he's betting again with something like KQ. They could also realize that it's unlikely you have a strong Ace, and decide to just string you along with some small bets.

    On the river, I'd probably check again. If villain bets large on the river, you're most likely beat. Very few players are opening from UTG preflop and triple barreling with worse than AT here. Plus, all worse aces are chopping this pot except for A8--which I doubt this player has in their range. In fact, they probably don't have any worse Aces in their range anyway.

    This all makes sense and seems (and is) obvious. But why it's almost impossible to think this way at the table, I have no idea. Maybe I just need to continue to keep cranking away with my off table stuff.


    Thanks for the feedback guys. I certainly understand I played this incredibly poorly.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭✭
    Dabby wrote: »
    This all makes sense and seems (and is) obvious. But why it's almost impossible to think this way at the table, I have no idea. Maybe I just need to continue to keep cranking away with my off table stuff.
    Well, when you have 20 minutes to think about the hand vs having 10 seconds at the table, it makes a big difference.

  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 290 ✭✭
    What are the advantages people can use to win hands?

    Card Advantage - starting with a better range than your opponent.
    Position Advantage - get to act last in a round, therefore we have more information than opponent.
    Initiative Advantage - as the aggressor in the hand, we can keep barrelling.
    Luck - let's flop a monster!

    Keeping these in mind help you think in the moment and build a plan for your hand. We're thinking of calling a raise from the SB with ATo. We won't have positional advantage or initiative advantage for sure. Will we have card advantage? This depends on our opinion of the preflop raiser's range.

    In this case, if we feel we're behind his range, and we don't have any other advantage, then it's hard to come up with good plan for this hand, other than "let's try and outflop him". Over the long term, we know this strategy alone isn't enough to win.

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