Flush Draws Not being Paid Off - Suggestions

EricEric Red Chipper Posts: 46 ✭✭
edited March 2015 in General Concepts
I generally lead with my draws. This strategy used to be extremely profitable. Nowadays when my flush draws hit, and I fire my normal 3/4ish pot sized bet, I am not being paid off. I honestly cannot remember the last time I was paid off when my draw materialized. I have slowly scaled back to 1/2 pot-sized bets and I am still not being paid off. I notice that the people who are being paid off are betting around 1/4 - 1/3 pot on the river and often smaller on the turn.

What can I do? My thought is to decrease to around 1/4 - 1/3 pot for value on the river and even smaller on the turn.

Should I check the turn when the flush comes in and value bet the river? I understand some of the downsides to this but I have noticed this working in my card room as well.

Has anyone else had a similar experience?

Any thoughts or suggestions? Any additional adjustments? Is there any reason not to scale back my bet size amounts? These players are not paying attention and will not pick up on a betting pattern tells.

Thanks in advance,


  • ivandurstivandurst Red Chipper Posts: 124 ✭✭
    Duder, if I could get into a game where my opponent would fold for a 1/2 pot bet nearly every time the 3rd flush card fell, I would be willing to play every hand in the dark :)

    No but seriously, one thing you can do is start bluffing when a flush card shows up using the same line you use when you actually get there. Either you'll win the pot an insanely inordinate amount of the time (the way you do now when you actually get there), or you'll get caught and it'll be much more likely that you get paid off when you have it. Win/win.

    Also, my guess is that you're either a) Overestimating the frequency that people fold to you when you have it, the way all of us humans tend to do, or b) Not concealing your draws well enough. Maybe try taking some other lines when you're drawing, such as leading or check-raising before you get there. It will make less sense to your opponents when you bet on a two-flush board, then again on a three-flush board. There is no default bet-sizing that you should stick to for getting paid off, it's opponent- and game-dependent. Now get there and get paid!
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 669 ✭✭✭
    Could you clarify, sorry if I missed it, at what point you're betting?

    Are you betting the draw and when the draw hits?

    Or are you just betting when the draw hits?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,382 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eric wrote:
    I generally lead with my draws.

    I honestly cannot remember the last time I was paid off when my draw materialized.

    These players are not paying attention and will not pick up on a betting pattern tells.

  • EricEric Red Chipper Posts: 46 ✭✭
    Ivan, Scors, Persuadeo and all,

    I am 'generally' betting all my draws and all my monsters. I only deviate from this strategy based on my opponents and their tendencies and board texture. I can't really start bluffing in these spots because my opponent(s) is/can (potentially) continuing with draws and I wouldn't know where I am vs. his/their equity. I am generally getting all the chips in vs a potential flush vs. flush scenario 100 BB deep so that is not a problem. What do you all think and are the site pros awake to chime in?

    Thanks all,
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    First off Eric,

    Can i ask how long and how much hands have you played where ever you are playing?
    How often do your one pair hands get paid off?
    When you do get paid off what is the villian showing up against you with?

    I'll need those information to better help you but from what i can understand, I think you have an image that is probably close to "Nit - he only bets with the nuts". While i really think its not a matter of people not paying you off or people are getting to scared because of the flush, its still hard to say without certain information.

    In general you seriously want to look into using your fold equity that you seem to have. In general if you are playing someone who fold in obvious spots like that, then you want to make life simple and make them fold and earn a small pot. Don't be ashamed of small pots like that. While it takes a few small pots to make up for 1 big pot, a big pot takes you to make a big hand and a villian to make a pot with second best. Try to focus on the smaller things. Also by doing the small things right, it affects how often you will get paid off with big hands.

    Last thing, i really really do not want to see you changing around your bet sizes for different hand strengths. That will do more harm than good, for eg. you finally might get paid once or twice with your flush draws but all of a sudden, people start calling lighter against your other bet sizes because they know how you bet your monsters. Its a chain reaction that comes with a price.



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  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    First, I'm glad you've noticed that flushes don't pay off as well as you'd think. This is food for thought regarding how much you should pay to draw to your flush.

    I use flush draws largely as semi-bluff hands. Decent players don't pay off much.

    However you've already struck on one way to exploit the situation. Draw to them cheaply, or aggress with them as a semi-bluff, and then bet small when it hits.

    The other way is to notice that if they aren't paid off, that means people will fold when a flush comes in even if you don't have it. Bet your normal 2/3 - 3/4 pot when a flush comes on the river (not a backdoor flush of course). For example, if you think your opponent holds a bigger pair than you, you might have a lot of outs. Villain has :Qh:Qd or :Ah:Jd, you have :9s:8s, and the flop is :9c:Jc:3h. If you only count 5 outs, you can fold to most bets. If you count 14 instead (5 + the 9 flush cards), then you're in much better shape obviously.

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