Defending blinds against a wide range stealer

Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
edited March 2015 in General Concepts
This is something i been thinking about and working on lately. Usually against a wide stealer i would have a much wider re-stealing range here, but lately i have been really confident with my postflop game so i have been experiment with calling a much wider range. Overall i have been able to play this spot really good but at the same time i do not have a really large sample to think about making it apart of my regular strategy.

So i want to ask you guys about your first take on defending a wide range with a wide range, because in theory, me being OOP and not having the initial lead is bad, which i have to accommodate by being more aggressive. However, with today games where steals are like min-raises or 2.5 for some people, is it wrong to want to be defending wide to not give the villian such a great win-rate from stealing from me?

-Rello
-Rello

"Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com

Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,069 -
    You are right on about defending more often. Cichy had a GREAT video in the February Archive about it when it came to 3betting.

    As an exercise, write down the entire range you would defend with against a min-raise, a 2.5x raise, and a 3x raise. Understand your own cusps (hands that are sometimes 3bet and sometimes calls) and see if any of your ranges are lacking. You don't have to share your findings...but it's a good place to start.
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  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Ok thank you
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would approach this differently for a cash game than a tournament.

    In general, in the live cash games I play in mostly, I don't worry about the blinds too much. Theoretically I know they are there to give us something to play for, but frankly I think most games would play exactly the same way if blinds didn't even exist. I usually just let people have my blinds and so I don't play OOP against aggressive players. Obviously I play the strongest hands, and if I feel I'm clearly ahead of his range, but not if I'm going to simply play fit or fold against a heavy c-bettor.

    For tournaments that blind money is much more important, especially when stacks start getting short, and even more so when the antes start.
  • Homie_Da_SharkHomie_Da_Shark Red Chipper Posts: 4
    I agree with Jeffc. I see no reason to defend my blinds in a 1 / 2 or 2 / 5 cash game. If the button has a wide steal range then I will 3bet, not to defend my blind but because his range is weak and will have to fold to a 3bet a large percentage of the time.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Just want to point out that i play online, one of the things i've been dealing with here is that since online games are tougher, open sizes are smaller, there is a ton of money lost by not defending. I think the best way to understand is imagine in a 1/2 game, you have a average player opening the button for $4. How much do you fold? How much do you 3bet? How much do you call? In a live setting i imagine that players are opening bigger, calling your 3bet wider and probably not even getting a chance to steal that often due to the softness of the game. I don't play much live, but hearing alot about it i think i understand where you guys are coming from. In the online games you face steals alot and not as much fishes as your typical live games. Reason i asked this question is because i noticed the math behind letting someone have a decent win-rate just by stealing cheaply, and in a setting where your average winrate is probably like 3-7bb/100 hands, you find out that every blind they profitably can take helps their winrate and minus yours. Of course mathematically i cannot go insane with 3betting an extremely wide range, thats why i asked about calling a wider range here.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, online (especially 6-max) is a different beast - the blinds do matter, and I think you're on the right track with that.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    I would approach this differently for a cash game than a tournament.

    In general, in the live cash games I play in mostly, I don't worry about the blinds too much. Theoretically I know they are there to give us something to play for, but frankly I think most games would play exactly the same way if blinds didn't even exist. I usually just let people have my blinds and so I don't play OOP against aggressive players. Obviously I play the strongest hands, and if I feel I'm clearly ahead of his range, but not if I'm going to simply play fit or fold against a heavy c-bettor.

    For tournaments that blind money is much more important, especially when stacks start getting short, and even more so when the antes start.

    Hi @jeffnc (and ofc others too!)

    Sorry to do some necromancy and revive this topic. I've but a question about blind defense. I went through my last session and noticed that I played (most of time pretty aggressively) premium and great hands from the blinds. (Also I tend to call with drawing hand, esp. if the price is good and I don't expect a 3-bet.)
    So I don't feel bad or scared to play OOP from the blinds, but I've the feeling my 3-betting range from the blinds is unbalanced with too many strong hands.

    This seems to be confirmed by articles and podcasts - like "3-Betting From The Blinds Shouldn’t Be Scary" from Ed Miller, who proposes 3-betting from the blinds with A3s or K8s.

    But would such hands, A3s or K8s, be really relevant to 3-bet from SB/BB when we mostly face Villains who tend to have calling mistakes? I've the feeling 3-betting with such hands is +EV only if Villains are able to fold enough of the time (easily be scared by barrels on AXX / KXX boards).

    Thanks for your comments
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    You are right on about defending more often. Cichy had a GREAT video in the February Archive about it when it came to 3betting.

    which one is Cichy?
    vv5m7osqsce3.jpeg

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    But would such hands, A3s or K8s, be really relevant to 3-bet from SB/BB when we mostly face Villains who tend to have calling mistakes? I've the feeling 3-betting with such hands is +EV only if Villains are able to fold enough of the time (easily be scared by barrels on AXX / KXX boards).

    OK, not to be nitpicky, but the subject of this thread is "Defending blinds". I interpret that slightly differently from "Defending from the blinds". The reason is that defending blinds implies working for that $3 in the pot (in a $1/2 game). I just don't think that's worth it in most games I play. (If I'm in kind of a nitty game and people fold a lot, then for sure then picking up the blinds once or twice per orbit really adds up, albeit for a small profit compared to a laggy donkey game.)

    However once your opponent raises, you now have his (much larger) bet to fight for, not to mention the postflop mistakes he might make. IMO this is worthy of an entire book (to get on the right track, read a book or study up on heads up poker.) That isn't my forte.

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