Hero QQ run into trouble

Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
edited June 2017 in Live Poker Hands
Game Type: $1-2-3
Hero: :QS::QC:
Effective Stack: $237

UTG limp calls
Hero raises to $25 from UTG+2
Folds around back to Villain who tanks and calls. ($208)

(Villain is an unknown, but seems solid

Flop: :JH::7C::5S:
Pot: $56

Villain Checks
Hero bets $25
(I was thinking to size it to half the pot with the flop being somewhat dry)
Villain tanks and calls
(At this point, I put him on a range of (KJ, AJ, JT, maybe TT, 99, 88)

Turn: :3C:
Pot: $106

Villain Checks
Hero bets to $55
(I think the sizing may have been too small. I also thought to check in this position)
Villain shoves all in for $103 more (Pot now at $276 and I have $132 behind)

I called without thinking because of the pot size. It cost me $103 to maybe win $276.
But, thinking back (could be result oriented), I felt that Villains pre-flop tank may have given off a pocket pair type hand, which should have made me think about him having 77 and 55 within his range.

Villain ends up showing :7d:7H: for the set.

Comments

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm confused are you playing $1\$2 and raise to $25 after 1 limp? Do you do this with your whole range? If not your hand is face up and the guy probably realized you had QQ+ type hand.

    I like your flop sizing at half pot. I would be suspicious after the flop call and likely check back on the turn unless the villain is a fish.

    When you think about it his range is PP heavy as you said and if he has 88 or 99 he is folding to a 2nd barrel. If he has AJ he may fold but likely call once more.

    Your large size preflop and dry board turns your range face up.

    Check back and evaluate river. And don't post the results or your likely to get bias results.

    I still think its a 2 street hand. Bet check bet or bet check call.
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    I'm confused are you playing $1\$2 and raise to $25 after 1 limp? Do you do this with your whole range? If not your hand is face up and the guy probably realized you had QQ+ type hand.

    I like your flop sizing at half pot. I would be suspicious after the flop call and likely check back on the turn unless the villain is a fish.

    When you think about it his range is PP heavy as you said and if he has 88 or 99 he is folding to a 2nd barrel. If he has AJ he may fold but likely call once more.

    Your large size preflop and dry board turns your range face up.

    Check back and evaluate river. And don't post the results or your likely to get bias results.

    I still think its a 2 street hand. Bet check bet or bet check call.

    It's not a typical raise that I usually raise to. Most spots I would raise to $15 or $20, but in this case the table was pretty loose on calls and $25 was the sweet spot to isolate to 1 or 2 callers at most.

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is the raise to 25 after multiple limpers or are people open raising 20-25? With shallow or 100bb I think 15 is plenty so you don't play face up.... After several limpers go ahead and attack.
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Is the raise to 25 after multiple limpers or are people open raising 20-25? With shallow or 100bb I think 15 is plenty so you don't play face up.... After several limpers go ahead and attack.

    I entered the table initially opening to $15, but was getting a lot of multi-way pots with 4-6 players. Then, I started to notice a couple of the other regs at the table raising to 20-25 as an opening raise, which limited the fields. So, I began to change accordingly, but after awhile, the table went back to standard $12-20 opening bets, which I prefer.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Joshua K wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Is the raise to 25 after multiple limpers or are people open raising 20-25? With shallow or 100bb I think 15 is plenty so you don't play face up.... After several limpers go ahead and attack.

    I entered the table initially opening to $15, but was getting a lot of multi-way pots with 4-6 players. Then, I started to notice a couple of the other regs at the table raising to 20-25 as an opening raise, which limited the fields. So, I began to change accordingly, but after awhile, the table went back to standard $12-20 opening bets, which I prefer.

    Thats fine just know you are lowering the SPR and limiting your skill edge post flop..but if you can get action with 12.5x then do it.
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    "Villain is an unknown, but seems solid"

    Well now you know he isn't, set mining with such a small SPR.

    Anyway there's not much you can do, people will show up with sets in weird scenarios. You need to be good about 32% of the time to call the shove if the pot was correctly calculated.

    Against unknown villains in live small stakes cash games you just need to get it in with a value hand like that when the SPR is so low. He probably doesn't have 64s, he can have Jx, backdoor flushdraw, weird pocket pairs, etc. If you have a read you should probably get rid of but you only need to be good so seldom in order to be profitable, although the shove is always a bit concerning.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Joshua K wrote: »
    Game Type: $1-2-3
    Austin wrote: »
    I'm confused are you playing $1\$2 and raise to $25 after 1 limp?

    It's $1/2/3, so $25 after a limp seems very reasonable to me. $15 would be a pot sized raise, but we can go higher in these small stakes games.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Joshua K wrote: »
    I felt that Villains pre-flop tank may have given off a pocket pair type hand, which should have made me think about him having 77 and 55 within his range.

    Yes of course villain can have a set here, this is basically always true in any hand ever. It should always be considered.

    The hand is kind of interesting because it's right about at the threshold that was discussed months ago on this forum regarding set mining odds. Should your opponent have set mined in this spot? The odds of flopping a set are about 7.5:1.

    Conventional wisdom says no - recommendations range from 15:1 to 20:1 preflop pot odds for set mining, at a minimum, and preferrably more (odds are opponent's stack size to call amount). In this case he's getting about 11:1. So by that metric your opponent is not "solid".

    However, one of the things discussed in that old thread was the fact that it works both ways. Players are better nowadays and don't always just stack off when playing really deep just because they flopped a set. For example, if you guys were playing $5,000 deep, is he really going to stack off with, let's say, bottom set? He knows that you know that you shouldn't be stacking off with an overpair at this depth, which means if you're willing to get it all in, then logically you flopped a set too, probably a set of jacks.

    The point being, the lower the pot odds are for preflop set mining, the more likely you can get your opponent to stack off when you do flop a set. We discussed as low as 10:1 maybe being OK, considering the lower the odds the higher the chance you actually get his whole stack.

    So your opponent's play probably wasn't that bad. Of course I doubt he knows all this, and so he was probably just gambling and hit. At this stack depth and SPR and given hands you can beat, probably just a cooler.

  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    The tough part here is playing an spr of a little over 4. This is in the gray area for stacking off with an over pairnor tptk. @splitsuit talks of this often... i fall for this too, but have found it to lose more than win when i have a one rank higher overpair. Here you have QQ over a J high board. So what do you beat he would checkraise shove? There are no real draws, 33 doesnt get past the flop. So hands you beat are AJ,KJ (maybe check raise turn but not a typical line which would be check raise floo, or check call flop, lead turn). Even lesslikely QJ and J10. You also beat bluffs with 1010, 99, and atc. That leaves JJ,QQ,KK,AA,77,55 75, J7. Pretty much nothing else. You are losing a lot more often than winning. As Ed Miller and many other coaches have pointed out... at low stakes people dont bluff enough, and rarely for stacks or as a checkraise/shove. So when faced with unusual aggresion believe them.
    With QQ this is a crying fold. KK and AA player dependent. But still likely fold
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭
    I think you played the hand well, but just got coolered. I would have probably called just as fast as you did unless I knew more about this V. Sure, we're not thrilled to be check raised here, but we'll certainly see some players spaz out in this spot with a club draw, top pair type hand, or pair + draw hand. They may just realize that they're nearly all in, and have just enough chips remaining to possibly convince you to fold a better hand.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    I'm not a fan of checking back Turn as you suggest. I would need a really strong reason to, which maybe you could elaborate on.

    A quick note, i'm not sure if i read this correctly but you say "I called without thinking because of the pot size. It cost me $103 to maybe win $276." but once you bet 55$ and he shoves for 103$ more the pot should be : 106$(pot on Turn)+55$(your bet)+158$(V bet) = 319$

    So it cost you 103$ to win 319$.
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    I'm not a fan of checking back Turn as you suggest. I would need a really strong reason to, which maybe you could elaborate on.

    A quick note, i'm not sure if i read this correctly but you say "I called without thinking because of the pot size. It cost me $103 to maybe win $276." but once you bet 55$ and he shoves for 103$ more the pot should be : 106$(pot on Turn)+55$(your bet)+158$(V bet) = 319$

    So it cost you 103$ to win 319$.

    You are right about the pot size, I calculated incorrectly.

    As far as the check, I was only thinking to do so because of the call decision pre-flop. It just seemed that he had a marginal hand or a pocket pair that he seemed to like, but the bet size put him at some weird place to call or fold. It could also be slightly result oriented. I have been running up against sets insanely in the last week and I think more often then not it puts me in a passive and defensive mode.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    If you put him heavily on PP then he is almost calling all that part of his range Turn. You will likely win more often then not vs. that part of his range then i prefer a bet. If he got Jx it's the same thing. Sizing is ok for that purpose. Once you cross leverage point Turn with your CBet i think there is no turning back.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    @Joshua K

    How many NFD do you bet Turn in this scenario and with what bet size?
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    @Joshua K

    How many NFD do you bet Turn in this scenario and with what bet size?

    I'm am most likely continuing on NFD in most situations and would make it 50-60% pot.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    Joshua K wrote: »
    @Joshua K

    How many NFD do you bet Turn in this scenario and with what bet size?

    I'm am most likely continuing on NFD in most situations and would make it 50-60% pot.

    Are you betting all your sets on Turn here ? Which bet size? I'm trying to see what our checking range could look like.
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    edited June 2017
    @Adam Wheeler sets I tend to mix up. I continue to lead on draw heavy boards, but no draw I may check the turn to let Villain catch up for value.

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    I have the feeling that if you bet almost all your sets and if you bet all your NFD, it will leave you open to be facing tough decision river when you do actually check Turn assuming you are playing vs. a competent player.

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