JTo from UTG+2

Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
(Disclaimer: I know that this hand was played poorly, but I want to hear feedback as to the overall play of the hand from start to finish! This is not a typical play and I knew I should not have been in this hand in the first place. I felt that the table was soft and was hoping I could make a play at the board post flop).

Game Type:$1-2-3
Hero has :JH: :TD: in UTG+2
Effective Stack: $400

UTG +1 limp call ($180)
Hero limp call
Lojack limp calls ($200)
Hijack raises to $15[Villain] ($300)
Folds around to Hero, Hero calls
Lojack folds

(Villain is a Fit-or-Fold style and C-bets 100% of the time about pot size, since being at the table when raising)

Flop: :9H: :8C: :5S:
Pot: $42

Hero Checks
Villain bets $40
Hero tanks and calls $40
(I put Villain's range on AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, KQ. I thought to go for the call, rather than the raise just in case he had an over pair, and then evaluate the turn).

Turn: :3C:
Pot: $122

Hero Checks
Villain bets $50
Hero tanks and calls
(I put Villain on over pair or AKh at this point to continue to bet in this spot, but his bet sizing of $50 put in to a pot of $122 gave me 3:1 odds to catch a Q or 7, which I felt was just the right amount for me to call. If Villain had bet $60 or more, I would have folded)

River: :QH:
Pot: $222

Hero Check
Villain Checks

Villain shows :TS: :TH:



Comments

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wouldn't tank so much. Whats the point? Makes you look weak.with that said his turn bet is weak, and you said you wanted to make a play at the pot.

    Are you trying to make hands on a soft table or put pressure and make plays?

    Really depends on how comfortable you are risking 200BB but this board is great for a callers range and you can apply max pressure against a competent player who may fold an over pair.
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    I wouldn't tank so much. Whats the point? Makes you look weak.with that said his turn bet is weak, and you said you wanted to make a play at the pot.

    Are you trying to make hands on a soft table or put pressure and make plays?

    Really depends on how comfortable you are risking 200BB but this board is great for a callers range and you can apply max pressure against a competent player who may fold an over pair.

    I was planning to make a play and I am not sure where my plan went. I agree that I should have applied the pressure here and stuck with the original value, where I may have gotten a fold on the flop or turn vs. potentially missing and being lost what to do on the river.
  • PondyPondy Red Chipper Posts: 146 ✭✭
    You are right that you shouldn't have been in the hand from EP, but if the table is soft it's not a big mistake for sure.

    On the flop, I am okay with just flatting as long as you follow through your plan to try and take away the pot once he skips a bet.

    On the turn, you could start applying pressure but it depends if he can let go a strong preflop hand because otherwise it it is setting money on fire. With his small bet, I can be okay with the flat call: However: you have to bet the river if a favorable card comes. I am shocked to see that you didn't bet your straight. You put money into the pot on every street when you were behind and you checked when you rivered the nuts. Did you really expect him to bet after his small and scared bet on the turn? You have to bet a straight for value as well as any card that pairs the flop as well as a J, T, 7 to apply pressure to most of his range.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭✭
    It's somewhat unclear of what your plan was for this hand. You're at a weak table, yet limping in with JTo--why not raise?

    As played with the limp and the plan of making a move post flop--this board is perfect for you to make your move--yet you only check-call. Perhaps afraid of making a move and getting jammed on and having to possibly fold? Also, you mention that V is c betting 100% of boards. If that's the case, then this board is a great one to check raise the flop. This is an opportunity that V is offering you to counter--betting flops too often--so you should be check raising very often.

    On the turn, you mention that you would have folded to a $60 bet. I'm not sure I understand why based on the range you're giving V. If V has AA, there's some chance that you can stack him if you connect. So, you do have some implied odds to call some bigger bets on the turn.

    Regarding the range assessment for V, I think it's likely too narrow. Although, I don't know much about V's preflop game, I think their range can be wider. This PF raise isn't very large given it's a 1-2-3 game and there are 3 limpers in front of V--so I doubt it's only going to be premium hands. Also, you estimate the range to be AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, KQ---why not JJ, TT, 99, 88, AJ?
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    edited June 2017
    Pondy wrote: »
    On the turn, you could start applying pressure but it depends if he can let go a strong preflop hand because otherwise it it is setting money on fire. With his small bet, I can be okay with the flat call: However: you have to bet the river if a favorable card comes. I am shocked to see that you didn't bet your straight. You put money into the pot on every street when you were behind and you checked when you rivered the nuts. Did you really expect him to bet after his small and scared bet on the turn? You have to bet a straight for value as well as any card that pairs the flop as well as a J, T, 7 to apply pressure to most of his range.

    Thanks for your feedback Pondy. I know that a leak in my game can be when to apply pressure. I believe I am passive at times during play.

    In the week before, I found I was being way to aggro and was on a form of tilt which had me stack off two buy-ins.

    So, I listened to the podcast about taming aggression and started to tone it back. I am still finding that happy balance.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,424 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    Joshua K wrote: »
    Hero has :JH: :TD: in UTG+2
    Effective Stack: $400

    UTG +1 limp call ($180)
    Hero limp call
    Lojack limp calls ($200)
    Hijack raises to $15[Villain] ($300)

    This makes no sense, effective stacks can't be bigger than everyone else in the hand. Since there are multiple players in the hand, then in a hand example just list the stack sizes and we'll figure it out.

    Anyway, if you're going to limp in this spot preflop it's because you think a raise is unlikely. You can do this but then you have to be prepared to fold if conditions change, and forfeiting your limp is the price you sometimes pay. So, do this only if you have good reason to think it's still profitable. Playing JTo from out of position against a strong range heads up is not good.

    Postflop, clearly you need implied odds to play this straight draw, and you're going for your opponent's stack, not just to break even. So in terms of pure math, and assuming we get his stack, the call on the turn is OK. But there are some details.

    First the most obvious one is that making your hand and then checking the river is bad. You need his stack to make this play, and that requires that he put it in. If there's a chance he's going to check or fold the river, then don't play the hand to begin with.

    Now let's look at why he might have checked the river. His most likely range, or at least the range we're targeting, is TT+. Now consider how the board will look if you hit your outs. It could be 98537. Now he sees the obvious straight and gets scared (the same as if a 6 hit the river). The same might be true if any T, J, or Q hit. A Q fills a very obvious straight. A Q also blocks QQ, meaning if a Q comes, his most likely hands are TT, JJ, KK and AA. Only 2 of those aren't concerned about the Q overcard pairing you, and all of them are concerned about the Q making a straight.

    Since every card that's good for you is a scare card for him, you have to shove the river. If you think he's going to fold if you shove, then fold the flop (which leads to the obvious - if you're going to fold this flop, then you should have folded preflop too.) In other words, put in some more planning to see how the hand is going to play out and how much money you might make.
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    It's somewhat unclear of what your plan was for this hand. You're at a weak table, yet limping in with JTo--why not raise?

    As played with the limp and the plan of making a move post flop--this board is perfect for you to make your move--yet you only check-call. Perhaps afraid of making a move and getting jammed on and having to possibly fold? Also, you mention that V is c betting 100% of boards. If that's the case, then this board is a great one to check raise the flop. This is an opportunity that V is offering you to counter--betting flops too often--so you should be check raising very often.

    On the turn, you mention that you would have folded to a $60 bet. I'm not sure I understand why based on the range you're giving V. If V has AA, there's some chance that you can stack him if you connect. So, you do have some implied odds to call some bigger bets on the turn.

    Regarding the range assessment for V, I think it's likely too narrow. Although, I don't know much about V's preflop game, I think their range can be wider. This PF raise isn't very large given it's a 1-2-3 game and there are 3 limpers in front of V--so I doubt it's only going to be premium hands. Also, you estimate the range to be AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, KQ---why not JJ, TT, 99, 88, AJ?

    I agree in this game, if I was coming in to play it should have been for a raise. I could have applied more pressure on this player more often when I lead out because of his possible range assignment to my hand. I initially thought of him 3-betting in this situation, but no one at the table had done so, but me looking back.

    Regarding range: I thought about jacks and ten combinations, but thought it to be less likely due to my blockers. As far as 8s and 9s that it was less likely even if he does cbet often, but that seems like a terrible assumption now.
  • (RCP Coach) Fausto(RCP Coach) Fausto RCP Coach Posts: 802 ✭✭✭✭
    @Joshua K ure plan is doomed from the beginning, ure playing at the mercy of the cards and hoping you get there based on what the opponent allows you to do and thats evident in ure actions and description

    Its more important to understand what u think your opponent is trying to implement and how he would react if u take a certain action. This will open up more opportunities for you in learning how to fight for the pot and win in general.
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,424 ✭✭✭✭✭
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    Also, you mention that V is c betting 100% of boards.

    I don't think that's what he meant. I think he is saying villain is fit or fold, and when he fits, his bets are about pot sized 100% of the time.
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    On the turn, you mention that you would have folded to a $60 bet. I'm not sure I understand why based on the range you're giving V.

    I don't think OP did any actual math here. I think it was his way of saying he was vageuly paying attention to pot odds and this was a close call for him. But clearly there's no boundary at $60, since you have to get villain's stack either way.
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    Regarding the range assessment for V, I think it's likely too narrow. Although, I don't know much about V's preflop game, I think their range can be wider.

    Again I think this is related to the fit or fold read by hero. If he keeps betting, he has an overpair here.

  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Joshua K wrote: »
    Hero has :JH: :TD: in UTG+2
    Effective Stack: $400

    UTG +1 limp call ($180)
    Hero limp call
    Lojack limp calls ($200)
    Hijack raises to $15[Villain] ($300)

    This makes no sense, effective stacks can't be bigger than everyone else in the hand. Since there are multiple players in the hand, then in a hand example just list the stack sizes and we'll figure it out.

    Anyway, if you're going to limp in this spot preflop it's because you think a raise is unlikely. You can do this but then you have to be prepared to fold if conditions change, and forfeiting your limp is the price you sometimes pay. So, do this only if you have good reason to think it's still profitable. Playing JTo from out of position against a strong range heads up is not good.

    Postflop, clearly you need implied odds to play this straight draw, and you're going for your opponent's stack, not just to break even. So in terms of pure math, and assuming we get his stack, the call on the turn is OK. But there are some details.

    First the most obvious one is that making your hand and then checking the river is bad. You need his stack to make this play, and that requires that he put it in. If there's a chance he's going to check or fold the river, then don't play the hand to begin with.

    Now let's look at why he might have checked the river. His most likely range, or at least the range we're targeting, is TT+. Now consider how the board will look if you hit your outs. It could be 98537. Now he sees the obvious straight and gets scared (the same as if a 6 hit the river). The same might be true if any T, J, or Q hit. A Q fills a very obvious straight. A Q also blocks QQ, meaning if a Q comes, his most likely hands are TT, JJ, KK and AA. Only 2 of those aren't concerned about the Q overcard pairing you, and all of them are concerned about the Q making a straight.

    Since every card that's good for you is a scare card for him, you have to shove the river. If you think he's going to fold if you shove, then fold the flop (which leads to the obvious - if you're going to fold this flop, then you should have folded preflop too.) In other words, put in some more planning to see how the hand is going to play out and how much money you might make.

    Thanks @bigburge10. I should have shoved on the river, I'm not sure why I would hope for him to triple barrel with one pair. A leak I need to work on. I've implemented the river shove in a few situations of just hands and bluffs, but I'm not sure why I didn't pull the trigger here.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,424 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Joshua K wrote: »
    Regarding range: I thought about jacks and ten combinations, but thought it to be less likely due to my blockers.

    That's true, he has 6 combos of JJ/TT and 18 combos of AA/KK/QQ. If a Q comes TT now has 2 reasons to check, while AA only has 1 reason, and AA is more likely. I don't think any of this changes the logic to bet the river though.

    I don't think it's particularly likely villain is folding an overpair at any point in this hand (although if you just check/shoved the flop that might do it.) That forces you to play your hand passively until you hit, then hope to get paid off. That works sometimes, but the difficulties you had here go all the way back to preflop and if you foresaw good opportunities to win this pot without hitting your magic cards.

  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭✭
    Joshua K wrote: »
    Thanks @bigburge10. I should have shoved on the river, I'm not sure why I would hope for him to triple barrel with one pair. A leak I need to work on. I've implemented the river shove in a few situations of just hands and bluffs, but I'm not sure why I didn't pull the trigger here.
    I don't think this hand is even a matter of shoving the river--it's more of a matter of why the hand even made it to the river with betting action still available. I think when you see a river card on this hand, you should have already been all in by the turn.

  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    Also, you mention that V is c betting 100% of boards.

    I don't think that's what he meant. I think he is saying villain is fit or fold, and when he fits, his bets are about pot sized 100% of the time.
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    On the turn, you mention that you would have folded to a $60 bet. I'm not sure I understand why based on the range you're giving V.

    I don't think OP did any actual math here. I think it was his way of saying he was vageuly paying attention to pot odds and this was a close call for him. But clearly there's no boundary at $60, since you have to get villain's stack either way.
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    Regarding the range assessment for V, I think it's likely too narrow. Although, I don't know much about V's preflop game, I think their range can be wider.

    Again I think this is related to the fit or fold read by hero. If he keeps betting, he has an overpair here.

    Ah, I see what you mean @jeffnc. Definitely interpreting this differently, but I think you're right.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭✭
    @jeffnc I was thinking through this again...
    Villain is a Fit-or-Fold style and C-bets 100% of the time about pot size, since being at the table when raising
    @Joshua K can you clear this up for us? I'm finding this statement confusing--V can't bet 100% of boards and be Fit of Fold. So, is V betting 100% of flops? Or are they betting 100% when they connect with the board in some way (meaning, they are giving up when they check)?
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    Regarding the range assessment for V, I think it's likely too narrow. Although, I don't know much about V's preflop game, I think their range can be wider.

    Again I think this is related to the fit or fold read by hero. If he keeps betting, he has an overpair here.
    After V bets the flop, @Joshua K provides a range of "I put Villain's range on AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, KQ", which implies V isn't exactly Fit or Fold. After V bets the turn, the range is "I put Villain on over pair or AKh", which becomes closer to Fit of Fold.
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    First of all you should either raise the hand yourself or just fold in this position, depending on the table.

    A check-raise would be in order at some point, either on the flop or on the turn. If he has 2 overs on the turn that will beat you at showdown you might as-well raise it and take it down right there. If he calls you have equity when called. It would be much better to be in position to do this, however. Don't mind flatting the flop, however.

    You've called a raise pre-flop, a bet on the flop and on the turn. If villain truly had two overs (AK) he'a almost always going to give up on the river if he blanks and he can do that and get to showdown because he's the one In position. When you make the nuts OOP on the river after showing you have something you need to get value from your hand by betting unless you're VERY certain that villain will bet it -- otherwise you never have any actual implied outs as you don't get payed when you hit your outs, when you're OOP.
  • Joshua KJoshua K Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    @jeffnc I was thinking through this again...
    Villain is a Fit-or-Fold style and C-bets 100% of the time about pot size, since being at the table when raising
    @Joshua K can you clear this up for us? I'm finding this statement confusing--V can't bet 100% of boards and be Fit of Fold. So, is V betting 100% of flops? Or are they betting 100% when they connect with the board in some way (meaning, they are giving up when they check)?
    bigburge10 wrote: »
    Regarding the range assessment for V, I think it's likely too narrow. Although, I don't know much about V's preflop game, I think their range can be wider.

    Again I think this is related to the fit or fold read by hero. If he keeps betting, he has an overpair here.
    After V bets the flop, @Joshua K provides a range of "I put Villain's range on AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, KQ", which implies V isn't exactly Fit or Fold. After V bets the turn, the range is "I put Villain on over pair or AKh", which becomes closer to Fit of Fold.

    When Villain is the PFR he c-bets always. However, when he calls a bet from a raiser, he plays fit-or-fold. He typically will not go past the flop unless he has a pair or draw.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭✭
    Joshua K wrote: »
    When Villain is the PFR he c-bets always.
    In that case, this opponent is giving you an opportunity to attack. Punish him.
  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 290 ✭✭
    Good example of why you have to tighten your range in EP - when these speculative hands hit something (which is rare), it's very hard to get paid. You either have to lead out big and hope he has something (and he gets to fold his junk), or you check and hope he bets, but he can always check behind.

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