Everyone loves playing JJ OOP in a 3bet pot

AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
This is an interesting hand I played yesterday. I don't have much information on V which effected my preflop play. What do you guys think?


$0.05/$0.10 NL - Holdem - 9 players



Hero (UTG+1): 100 BB

MP+2: 146.9 BB (VPIP: 8.33, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)

BTN: 137.3 BB (VPIP: 66.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)


Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has :Jh:Jc

Hero raises to 3 BB, MP+2 calls 3 BB, BTN raises to 11 BB, Hero calls 8 BB, MP+2 calls 8 BB

On the flop I decided to just call the 3bet because I don't want to 4bet against an unknown V. If he jams I'm in a difficult spot and very likely behind.

Flop : (34.5 BB, 3 players) :5h:4s:8c
Hero checks, MP+2 checks, BTN bets 7 BB, Hero calls 7 BB, MP+2 calls 7 BB

The flop bet is very small. I put BTN on AK, AQ, maybe an overpair. At this point I decided to just call. I think that this wasn't a good play at all. I give MP+2 a good price to call with a lot of hands.

Turn : (55.5 BB, 3 players) :2h
Hero checks, MP+2 checks, BTN checks

This is not what I wanted to see. I am pretty sure about BTN's range now, but what is the range of MP+2?


River : (55.5 BB, 3 players) :7c

Board: :5h:4s:8c:2h:7c

Should I lead this river and fold to a raise? I still get called by worse overpairs and 8X, maybe 7X.

Hero checks, MP+2 bets 29.7 BB, BTN fold, Hero ???

I put myself into a really difficult spot there. What should I do?


Comments

  • River GRiver G Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
    With the hand history we have, I'm leaning towards no information on either Villain.

    I can be on board with calling preflop. Not sure if 4 betting gets us anywhere against hands we beat, or at best are flipping with. So far so good.

    OTF, I wouldn't check. My reasoning is that it might check though, and when a possible overcard hits the turn 3 ways, what then? I'd go ahead and lead out. As played...

    Turn - Still leading out. In a sense to protect from overcards getting there (last chance to get value from them if they want to call), and I think I have the best hand given action. It's a little backwards to dissect this, yet we played the flop passively. Ok.

    OTT, we checked again. Checks through.

    Ya know, given the line taken, I like check and possibly call. Tough because we have no real info on V's. Yet if we bet now, what calls us? At this point our hand is super disguised, so I think I'd check call for the information. We might win, we might lose, maybe after this one we can adjust our line in future hands against these V's.
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    River G wrote: »
    With the hand history we have, I'm leaning towards no information on either Villain.

    I can be on board with calling preflop. Not sure if 4 betting gets us anywhere against hands we beat, or at best are flipping with. So far so good.

    OTF, I wouldn't check. My reasoning is that it might check though, and when a possible overcard hits the turn 3 ways, what then? I'd go ahead and lead out. As played...

    I have to disagree with leading. V is almost always going to c-bet after 3-betting preflop. This board is quote dynamic so it's unlikely that he doesn't take a shot at it on the flop against 2 callers. If you want to make the pot bigger you can go for the check-raise.

    A lead is only going to make the pot bigger and our mistakes increase if we are behind, which is a thought H has already taken.

    It's unlikely that your hand has 3 streets of value so you might as-well keep the pot small.
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    This is an interesting hand I played yesterday. I don't have much information on V which effected my preflop play. What do you guys think?


    $0.05/$0.10 NL - Holdem - 9 players



    Hero (UTG+1): 100 BB

    MP+2: 146.9 BB (VPIP: 8.33, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)

    BTN: 137.3 BB (VPIP: 66.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)


    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has :Jh:Jc

    Hero raises to 3 BB, MP+2 calls 3 BB, BTN raises to 11 BB, Hero calls 8 BB, MP+2 calls 8 BB

    On the flop I decided to just call the 3bet because I don't want to 4bet against an unknown V. If he jams I'm in a difficult spot and very likely behind.

    Flop : (34.5 BB, 3 players) :5h:4s:8c
    Hero checks, MP+2 checks, BTN bets 7 BB, Hero calls 7 BB, MP+2 calls 7 BB

    The flop bet is very small. I put BTN on AK, AQ, maybe an overpair. At this point I decided to just call. I think that this wasn't a good play at all. I give MP+2 a good price to call with a lot of hands.

    Turn : (55.5 BB, 3 players) :2h
    Hero checks, MP+2 checks, BTN checks

    This is not what I wanted to see. I am pretty sure about BTN's range now, but what is the range of MP+2?


    River : (55.5 BB, 3 players) :7c

    Board: :5h:4s:8c:2h:7c

    Should I lead this river and fold to a raise? I still get called by worse overpairs and 8X, maybe 7X.

    Hero checks, MP+2 bets 29.7 BB, BTN fold, Hero ???

    I put myself into a really difficult spot there. What should I do?


    The first problem I see is that you go into a pot with a strong hand that doesn't play quite so good against more than 1 player. When you make the call MP+2 only needs 28.6% equity to make the call. A fish is going to call with less equity and you'll have no idea where he's at. You either want to get out of the situation in the first place or isolate with a re-raise. MP+2 is going to show up with a lot of funky hands (suited connectors that he doesn't think are strong enough to raise with but can have decent equity against us) so you might as-well get yourself into a heads up situation with the 3-bettor and throw in the 4-bet.

    If V 5-bets, with no information, we can usually safely assume that he has QQ,KK,AA or at best AK and IMO throw our hand away. If he calls we can almost safely assume that he has AK at best. Some sneaky players will slow play their over-pairs after generating a decent pot but really, KK and AA will usually try to get it in since you show such strength. Heck, you might even get an occasional QQ in the muck against some very tight players. Just don't go multi-way in a pot where you're essentially not set-mining but relying on the hand's showdown value against villain's range.

    What happens now on the flop, as played, is that we get into a very awkward situation. We have no idea where we are at. We didn't test the 3bettor so we haven't capped his range at anything. He can have any pocket pair at this moment or just some two overs. MP+2 can have all sorts of weird connectors that connect with this flop, or a potential set.

    Flop: the pot is 35bb. 7bb is a very, very very weak bet against 2 players on a board where the turn can change everything. This is almost always going to be 2 over cards betting, crying for you to leave his pot for a cheap price for him. Go for c-raise. If he jams on you we can usually assume that Villain was inducing a bet where we're beat. He's usually going to fold. We're only generating more problems for us by calling, giving MP+2 yet again insane odds to call with almost anything. Don't donk here, by donking we don't get this information and the extra 7bb into the pot that we should usually take down right here.

    Turn: we shouldn't even be in this situation in the first place but since we got there you need to ask yourself what's going on. BTN raised very very very small. You called. MP+2 called, he didn't raise. Neither of them has anything spectacular. You should bet here but as played, when BTN checks we can almost be certain that he's given up and doesn't have anything. Our biggest concern at this point should be MP+2 who probably doesn't have anything yet but is likely drawing.

    River: MP+2 has shown that he doesn't like to bet, don't expect a bet from him if you want value. BTN bet small on the flop and checked the turn, don't expect a bet from him for value. The problem here is that the 6 is very likely to finish some of the draws that MP+2 is going to show up with. That being said (we shouldn't be in this situation anyway) I don't think there's much point in value betting this river since we can't really call a shove. As played, check and evaluate. In this situation, fold. MP+2 has too many combos of two pairs or straights after calling this flop and turn and suddenly he decides to bet for value. Just fold. Against a maniac you can justify an occasional call but you need to be good 25.8% of the time to make the call on the river. I'd fold, but you can call if you think you're good more than a quarter of the time. In this case, very unlikely given the action.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 564 ✭✭✭
    You should 4 bet pre. It looks like a squeeze spot and you should be going to war. You could flat without caller behind you, but the result of this spot is exactly why you cant here (i.e. Bluffcatching multiple streetd against 2 people)

    Flop is a good spot to go for a small cr. You will force both opponents to turn their hand face up, specifically mp, and gives you both initiative and more clarity in the hand moving forward.
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    Jónas S wrote: »
    If V 5-bets, with no information, we can usually safely assume that he has QQ,KK,AA or at best AK and IMO throw our hand away.

    Obviously meant to say at worst.
  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
    You made good points there. Thank you for your advice! I am going to play flops more agressively in the future.


    Btw, MP+2 had :As:6s
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭✭
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    You should 4 bet pre. It looks like a squeeze spot and you should be going to war. You could flat without caller behind you, but the result of this spot is exactly why you cant here (i.e. Bluffcatching multiple streetd against 2 people)

    Flop is a good spot to go for a small cr. You will force both opponents to turn their hand face up, specifically mp, and gives you both initiative and more clarity in the hand moving forward.

    you are basically saying we should raise for information?

    Not really a spot you see tons of 3BSQ when we open in EP in a FR game.

    C3b -xc-xx-xf would be line on that runout, and after we go 3 way to turn it is hard for MP to be bluffing or even value betting a worse hand
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    4 bet pre and probably fold to 5 bet. Kinda sucks flatting and kinda sucks turning your hand into over value but its the best of the two worlds. 4 bet > calling.

    Post flop I would likely check and raise the weak cbet as you can have more sets than the squeezer and effectively turn your hand into a bluff if you are beat. Sucks if MP has a set but you will find out if he cold 3 bets.

    I can only see this hand as embracing variance and creating an aggressive dynamic between the two of you. I don't see any other way of playing this that is +EV since your oop, 3 way pot, sucks to set mine with JJ. Just feels too weak not to 4bet here.

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