JJ in BTN Facing 3bet

Matthew MMatthew M Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
edited July 2017 in Live Poker Hands
Playing live 1/3

Villain has shown some aggression, but has done very little 3betting
I don't remember our exact stack sizes, but we were both about 100BB deep

3 players limp
Hero raises to 12 from BTN with JhJd
Villain (UTG) re-raises to 38
Others call
Hero calls

Flop ($152)
QQ5d (sorry, I don't remember the suits of the queens)
checks around

Turn ($152)
Villain raises to 65
Others fold
Hero folds

What do you think about this hand? Should I have folded pre-flop to the 3bet? Should I have continued on the turn? How can I improve my play in this situation?


  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭✭
    I think your preflop sizing is a little small given that there were 3 limpers. I'd go closer to $20. Anyway, UTG just limp raised and at 1/3, this move is usually aces. Once the other players call, you need to call as well--we're set mining though.

    On the flop, it's reasonable that V would check this flop with AA, so I don't mind checking back in attempt to realize your equity. You might be able to toss out a small bet and if called, check turn--this allows you to get to the river fairly cheap.

    I hate giving V such a narrow range, but that's just what a limp raise preflop does--the hand is almost always very strong. I just think JJ is behind here and we're playing to set mine.
  • Matthew MMatthew M Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Thanks @bigburge10. I saw him make a similar preflop raise later. The hand went to showdown and he did have AA.
  • OliverLovingOliverLoving Red Chipper Posts: 61 ✭✭
    That seems like a much too specific read of an essentially unknown player. Sure limp re-raise is not uncommon with AA in these games but some players will do it with TT+ and AK and AQs as well. QQ5 is a great flop with AA or KK so does that not discount these hands somewhat when he checks the flop?? Also, 65 is a fairly small bet on blank turn so AK and TT become a bit more likely (not to mention the unlikely QQ & JJ). I would call the turn and fold to a river shove unless it is a J of course.

    Preflop, I agree the initial raise is too small and calling the 3bet is correct. Thanks for the hand - interesting spot
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    Pre needs to be bigger -- like 8-10x the BB ($3) w/ all those limps.

    The limp/reraise should scare you. It's heavily weighted toward QQ+ if villain seems ABC & has been quiet thus far. I think your call preflop is correct regardless, though all the weak calls in between make a shove an interesting, though likely suboptimal, option given how strong Villain seems (cuz he's not folding & does not qualify as dead money).

    I think flop check or bet is arguable when it gets checked to you. And same can be said of your play on turn, fold or call are pretty close. I lean toward a fold multiway & call HU or 3-way much more.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agree with most - raise more preflop. As played, villain has KK+ almost always. Clearly a calling situation - folding is very bad getting 5:1 with 4 opponents and you're likely to stack the main villain and maybe someone else as well. Set mining doesn't get much better than this. Pretty much the only flop where you hit a set and don't get a lot of money in is AJx when villain has KK, but then it's pretty likely another opponent has an A to pay you off with.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    For me, the most important question is: What is the image that V has of you? And on what is that based?
  • OliverLovingOliverLoving Red Chipper Posts: 61 ✭✭
    Thinking again about this hand, I am likely betting this flop when checked to and then playing to gt to showdown cheaply if called (which includes folding to any further action from villain). If I check, I am doing it to induce a bluff and/or get information. The relatively small delayed c-bet suggests a bluff or weak made hand to me so I always calling in that spot.
  • Matthew MMatthew M Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    @moishetreats I would say my table image is pretty tight. I hadn't shown any bluffs. I've been somewhat aggressive, but had only played in two significant hands to this point.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Loose table ill make it $25 or so preflop
    Tighter table making it about 18-22.

    This looks like a loose table if they limped call $38 pre then I'm using $5 per limper and opening $15-$20 with my premiums.

    3 Limpers = $30
    4 Limpers = $35
  • Khanh PKhanh P Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
    I don't like the idea of betting for information on the flop giving that there are others in the pot as well, it is possible that someone have a Q in their hands. With you being IP, it is also standard for you to check back Qx here so clearly by checking back on the flop, you're not giving away anything nor cap your range.

    Consider how small the sizing of his bet is, I think you will need to peel one on the turn else I feel like you're folding way too much. I mean if you're not calling with JJ here, then what hands are you going to call with? Qx+? You almost never have KK or AA here giving that you did not 4bet pre so JJ is definitely close to top of your range here. Hands such as AK, AQs, TT+ might bet with this sizing giving that he is aggressive. However, if he doesn't have a Q himself, it is extremely unlikely that he will bet again on the river because it is a multi way pot and you can have Qx in your range. As a result, you might be able to win at showdown some of the times. On a side note, it is possible that he limp 3bet you with some AQ, AK, 99+ due to the small size of your iso raise.
  • Laurence CLaurence C Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Great comments. My personal experience is it depends on our read of Villain tendencies. I would shove on the turn because his small bet on the turn could be a stop and go bet. Yes, Villain could show us AA or KK on the river, this is why I said it would depend on our read on Villain tendencies. The range I would put Villain on is JJ+, AKo, AKs, AQo, AQs, 98s, 78s, 65s. It is quite possible that V picked a backdoor flush draw on the turn, and thought he could bet the turn because he would get folding equity against you and have draws if you called.
    The only way I would fold the turn bet if Villain is a tight player with NIT tendencies. However, this type of players would make a large bet on the turn, instead of a small bet. So, my feel would be to put a lot of pressure on my opponent. If the flop was 9 9 5, you would most likely have a lot of confidence in betting either the flop or turn. The reason why I want to point this is you are playing the two hole cards instead of your range. My range would be to shove on the turn, if Villain shows me Qx, or AA, or KK, bless him.
  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 388 ✭✭✭
    Welcome to Red Chip Forums Matthew!

    I agreed with many above that limp/reraise by a player who hasn't 3-bet represents a strong premium range, so we are set mining here.

    My only additional feedback for your post.... If you don't remember the suits of a hand, just make something up, its OK, we are all friends here :-)

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