correct call or naive?

mjbmjb Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
Hey guys, i recently started playing live cash games with blinds 2/2.

This is the first Hand of the evening so i have no Infos on anybody, however i hear the guys talking that the villain in this Hand is on the waiting list for the 5/5 game and that he is there quite often.

we are 8 handed, i am the in the smallblind with AcJh 4 limpers, i raise to 18 and everybody calls. (bigblind folds)

Flop Comes AhKh9h i decided to check my toppair with the jack of hearts as a backup everybody checks to villain who bets 40 as the last Person to act.

i call everyone else folds.
turn is the 8c and he shoves for 140 effective.

at this Moment i am thinking that he is attacking my shown weakness when checking the flop and having the Jh as a backup i make the call.
he Shows me 89 for bottom two pair and the river bricks.

did i totally misplay this

should i cbet this, or maybe check shove on the flop`?
as played is my call on the turn bad? i dont see him having anything but the flush or a bluff , AK is never in his range here , 99 might be, but wouldnt that Hand raise pre most of the time, maybe a9 which i block and he is probably going to Play this more aggressive pre against so many limpers.

76hh, 65hh, QJhh J10hh are the hands that beat me, however i feel like after my check on the flop he can so nicely put pressure on me by shoving the turn and i think anybody else that checks this flop is going to fold there alot of the time.

thanks for any Input


  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    1) I'd complete -- not raise -- preflop. Or, if I were to raise, then it would be a lot more...

    2) I think that an argument could be made for cbetting or for checking. I would likely check this flop though, too: as you noted, this can't hit many of the Villains' pre-flop limp-call range hand. If I were to check, though, then it would ONLY be because...

    3) I expect someone to bet and that would allow me to check-shove. You're likely way ahead here. A9 and K9 -- in addition to 99 -- are possible, but you have tons of equity against those hands. I'd expect many players with Qh to call as well as possibly someone with AT or Axs, figuring that you might be semi-bluffing.

    So, my first recommendation would be a check with the intent to shove when someone bets. If you don't think that anyone would bet, then I'd cbet. My last choice would be a check-call. Given how many players are in pre-flop, I'd hate for you to check-call and then have everyone else priced in. At that point, you'd have little fold equity given your remaining stack. Better to either charge people for their attempt to suck out on your or take it down now if everyone folds. Odds are that your money would be getting in almost no matter what would come on the turn anyway, so you're best to serve as the aggressor.
  • JonasJonas Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    I agree with @moishetreats.

    Because you elected to raise AND there were so many callers, the pot is pretty hefty after the V's $40; it's around $132? With effective stack only $140 after that, there isn't room for maneuverability on further streets. The flop is the point where you should twist the knife
  • OliverLovingOliverLoving Red Chipper Posts: 61 ✭✭
    The response by @moishetreats is excellent in my view.

    I used to make a lot of raises from SB with several limpers holding marginal hands which are likely to be best (e.g. AJo). I have stopped doing it since if the original limper calls, several others usually do too and I am now playing a multiway pot OOP with a low SPR. This is often difficult.

    The plan to checkraise is quite a good one as played. However, if the original limper makes a bet and there are two callers, it is a bit less comfortable. Probably still +EV but pretty high variance. If you are better bankrolled than your opponents you can put a lot of pressure on them by this kind of play. But, in general, just see the flop cheaply with a good but not great hand is preferred.

    All that said, you lost this hand because you got unlucky not because you played bad.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with preflop raise and I like the 9x sizing after 3-4 Limpers.

    Post flop I would likely bet around 35 around 35-40% pot and shove a lot of turns given the stack size. Yes they can have some small flushes but you will still have equity.

    AJo won't always get 3 or 4 callers vs 9x sizing. So I wouldn't play scared preflop with. Marginal hand because your afraid you won't flop anything. Play it like you have AA.
  • Zero CoolZero Cool Red Chipper Posts: 270 ✭✭✭
    Assuming you started the hand with $200 once everyone calls the pot is $92 and you have $182 behind making this effectively a 2 SPR pot which means we're not folding. With this board I would c-bet or check with the intent to shove if someone bets.
  • OliverLovingOliverLoving Red Chipper Posts: 61 ✭✭
    Austin makes a good suggestion to raise and play it like you have AA. I do this a lot online where the raise sizes are smaller, there are few callers and thus SPRs are large enough to allow you to play some poker OOP.

    In a live game like this one (at least apparently based on this example) however where raise sizes are large and several callers are not infrequent, the SPR is so small that it forces me to make a commitment decision on the flop. On this particular flop :Ah :Kh :9h it is reasonable for me to do so but how about :9d :8c :5h or many other possible flops. Now my options all stink.

    I think Zero Cool is misunderstanding the concept of pot commitment. Yes, it is true that the SPR is 2 but hero has only put $18 in the pot which is only 9% of his stack so he can definitely fold. However, any further action on his part will constitute a commitment decision. This is why I choose to just complete the small blind with hands like this. My OOP raises will be hands like TT+, AJs+, AKo and even TT is a question mark if I expect to get several callers based on game history

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