Line check QQ 1-3

Rich57Rich57 Red Chipper Posts: 110 ✭✭
I wanted to get some feedback on my line in this hand.
1-3 at MGM NH effective stacks about 250 full ring
Hero is in CO with :Qs:Qd
UTG+1 opens for 11
MP1 calls
MP2 calls
folds to Hero
Hero raise to 40 (should I have raised more?)
SB calls (Sticky, just sat down (2 orbits), plays any decent hand and does not like to fold)
folds around to MP1 who calls (been there a while, hard to figure, leads out and then shuts down with both strong and weak hands)
Mp2 folds
Pot is 139 after rake
Flop is :Kc:Jc:5d
SB checks
MP1 best 50
He donked 50 so my radar immediately screams Kx or flush draw
I hesitated a moment and called (thinking that Red Chip coaches would skewer me for folding in this situation)
SB calls
Pot is 289
Turn is :8s
This is a card that does not change anything and here it gets a little weird
SB checks
MP1 bets 25
25? WTF? is this pot control, a nervous K, flush draw or just a bad player. Since SB is still lurking I decide to just call
River is :5c
Pairs the board, completes flush draws, not a good card for me as far as I read it
SB checks, MP1 checks
Hero?

I will post the result later

Comments

  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    40 is not bad but I'd go slightly larger, closer to 50, to make it a roughly pot sized. If the first player calls the rest have pretty decent odds to call. I usually at least x4 when 3betting preflop so in this case at least 44 but I'd add a bit more due to the 2 limpers in-between.

    The 50 donk (36% pot) on the flop does not scream Kx, it screams draw or weak pair. A donk weak king will usually make a bigger bet to get you off flushdraws and broadway draws, he's unable to see that this board hits your range. Such a small donk bet like this screams a draw that he wants for a price that he decides. I'd go for a raise here, make him pay for his draws, if he goes all in you can safely fold. Note that very good players will make this play to induce a raise from you when they've got close to the nuts but its rare in 1/2 and 1/3. Same story on the turn.

    The main issue here is that you allow both players to stay in the pot for cheap. Make a raise on the flop and get at least one of them to fold, if they start re-raising and going all crazy you can fold but by only calling you have no idea where you're at and you give them all the draws in the world for practically free. I'm not saying that you should go crazy against donkers every time, but determine by their bet-size what they mean. You can then evaluate at showdown, if you get there, if your speculation was wrong or not.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    I agree with @Jonas. I'd add that, as played, I'd just check behind on the river. There's almost no hand from which you'd be getting value if you bet, and I don't think that you can pull of the I-hit-the-flush bluff against both Vs -- I'm sure that at least one would still call (and might have a flush himself).
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    This is a terrible situation--and it is one that was brought about by a poor 3-bet size. By betting bigger you can actually rep a squeeze-bluff better--and you get more value from callers--and it balances your bluffs--and it ruins the plans of players who are trying to get in cheap, hit a big hand, and stack someone--and it protects your non-robust pair--and it puts stacks in play more readily, so players will be more likely to stack-off on the flop if they hit something that you beat, or if the board is clear of high cards and you can rep a missed AK and they can call comfortably with TT.
    A pot-size raise includes your call. So the opener plus all callers including yourself, $11x4plyrs+$4 in blinds=$48+$11=A raise to $59.

    As played, I'll start with the River and work back.
    If these players don't have the guts bet their own hands, and want you to bet for them OTR because they never bluff but know you are strong enough to bluff, then I am checking down OTR and hoping my hand is good. If they are straight forward and know how to bet all their own hands I would bluff the river here unless they like to call rivers. Know your opponents.

    Again on the turn this is tricky if my opponents don't have the guts to bet their own hands for big money, and slowplay everything. But if they are straight-forward you could raise if you were heads-up against the weak small bet(sorta a merge to bet here), but 3-way I don't like our chances of one of our opponents having a weak King and getting sticky on us a OTR when we don't know if our opponents will have the draw or are just getting sticky with a weak King, or slowplaying nuttish hands. If they don't make tricky checks with the nuts OTR we can call the turn planning to bluff the river if checked to, so once again we can thank the power of position.

    On the flop you could raise with your hand(merge; at this point you are playing not so much with your hand but against their ranges--something that should have been done properly preflop), and then giving up if you opponents will give up too much-- but you have that sticky player in the blinds. I hate paying players off who use bad bet-sizes and don't have the guts to make large bets. I don't like raising and paying off this player or the player in the blinds, one of whom will probably be correct in calling us. I would just play my equity against the odds I am getting, and call flop, call turn, and check river. These players will not punish us for being passive or giving anything away. Let them draw for free, and massively value-cut themselves with their top pair and slowplayed monsters, and trickily checked rivered flushes. We need a better plan of attack that starts preflop.

    We need to be destroying their gameplan. What is their gameplan at these stakes?
    1. School together and see a relatively cheap flop,
    2. Hit a big hand on the flop and stack someone over the next 3 streets, being careful not to bet too big so as to lose action--inducing raises with small blocker bets works well for that.
    3. If you aren't there yet on the flop, hopefully the school will give you cover to draw for cheap, since one of the school-mates will have something that the table captain can't barrel into and weak player can draw for cheap/free.
    4. Only bet big OTR if someone else can have a worse nuttish hand. Let the table captain bluff or value-bet thinly, and then raise or call. Otherwise, block-bets can be balanced with strong hands that can't bet large because it would be unbalanced(not bluffing); these may get raised.

    Our counter-strategy.
    1. Depending on likely ranges, raise limpers, and 3-bet weak opens with a very broad linear range (unpolarized and uncapped). Size to make their play unprofitable but not completely un-call-able. We are isolating; scattering the school, and preying on the lone fish.
    2. Play their Ranges, not your hand. Some flops are very likely to hit our opponents and we have no equity; so we give up immediately, not even c-betting. Others we can single, double, or triple barrel. We will be playing our own hand some of the time, but is important to understand where the money comes from in these games, and it often isn't from thin value.
    3. A dynamic will build because of your aggression, where they will start calling you down more often so you can begin to go for thinner value.
    :Jd:Tc
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I disagree with Jonas as raising the flop is pretty bad with so little equity. Especially raise folding.

    Flop ($139) KJ5cc
    Sb check
    MP bets $50
    Hero ($210) what raise size can you possibly use here without committing yourself.

    Raising is an option but doesn't make any sense unless you have KQ, AK, or a draw yourself. Anything else is close to suicide.
    -does villain donk bet $50 (perfectly reasonable sizing in a 3 bet pot multiway I will add) I would use similar sizing myself to set up a easy turn shove given stack sizes. Does he do this with Jx (unlikely), KX (probably), flush draw (May be 50\50 as a. X\r would be better with a combo here.

    Against this range you have 26% equity. This is the part I don't understand and why some of you may be losing players here and seeking to get better which is good. You should really consider equity vs range and stack sizes before offering feed back. On my AJ post I had 60-75% equity and most of the comments were to just call down cause its multiway and people were scared to get the money in because they may have hero crushed. Here people are advocating a raise despite having little equity in the hand.

    Please show us a range where raising would be correct here? I developed a solid range based on preflop action and 3 bet calling range for a live game scenario. If you disagree with the range please share yours. Again hero is only 26% against this range. If I add both villains it is much worse.

    earv7yz1187z.png

    I think calling down here is ok. I'm never raising flop or turn 3 way with 2nd pair.
    Raising the river and turning your hand into a bluff has some potential but calling or flatting is fine.

    The one scenario I would just outright fold flop is when I know MP plays straight forward and never bets draws which would leave you crushed.

    In higher stakes and 200BB effective I can see a raise here working because your range has more JJ, KK, and AK in it than the cold callers. However, the stacks in this hand is not deep enough to rep range. Also low stakes they are not considering their range enough and your range, they are just playing their hand.
  • Rich57Rich57 Red Chipper Posts: 110 ✭✭
    Thanks to all for the insights

    I agree that the pre flop raise could have/should have been bigger
    MP had not bet 50 a single time except one all-in push with the nuts in three hours, so this was a big bet for him. This effectively precluded me from raising the flop with a player behind me.
    On the turn, his bet looked like a pot control bet but I had no equity with which to raise MW
    In the event, I tabled my queens they both mucked. I did not really consider raising the river because nothing that I could beat was likely to call and I could not call a x/r

    I get the point that leaving them in without charging them could have been problematic. I am trying to make the best plays and this is why I asked, despite winning a handsome pot
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rich57 wrote: »
    Thanks to all for the insights

    I agree that the pre flop raise could have/should have been bigger
    MP had not bet 50 a single time except one all-in push with the nuts in three hours, so this was a big bet for him. This effectively precluded me from raising the flop with a player behind me.
    On the turn, his bet looked like a pot control bet but I had no equity with which to raise MW
    In the event, I tabled my queens they both mucked. I did not really consider raising the river because nothing that I could beat was likely to call and I could not call a x/r

    I get the point that leaving them in without charging them could have been problematic. I am trying to make the best plays and this is why I asked, despite winning a handsome pot

    Extremely luck both muck when you block QT.

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