4-bet preflop with 66.

Matt VMatt V Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
1/3 NL.

I'm in the big blind with :6s:6c .

Villain is a very aggressive player. I can't say whether he's loose or tight, but he seems to play a wider than average range for the table. He's in the cutoff with ~$130, I have him covered.

Folds to villain who raises to $16. Button folds, SB folds. I raise to $38.

Villain tries to call but winds up raising to $88 on a technicality*. What should I do here?

* He was holding $70 worth of chips in his hand and moved them across the line and was counting to $38 with the chips from his hand, but the dealer told him that since he didn't announce his action, all the chips that moved across the line constituted a raise. Maybe he was trying for some kind of angle-shoot, but I don't think so. I believe that he really just wanted to call.

Comments

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fold. If TT is a fold vs a limp raise range I think I just fold vs his overall range. Guessing 66 is around 40% here.
  • Matt VMatt V Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    If TT is a fold vs a limp raise range

    Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by this? Thanks.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Matt V wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    If TT is a fold vs a limp raise range

    Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by this? Thanks.

    There is another Hand history we discussed stacking off with TT vs a limp raise. Check it out.

    forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/8763/villain-limp-reraises-my-open-was-i-dumb-to-shove-tt#latest
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    If 66 has 40% we should commit.

    We have 38 in the pot plus V's 130 means we would commit 88 to win 168. 88/(168+88) = 34%.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭
    Fold preflop. We don't have the odds to set mine and post flop will be very murky vs. an aggressive player if we don't flop a set. 3betting is likely the next best option but your sizing here isn't going to generate many folds against this type of player and it's hard to argue that this is for value with a lack of clarity post flop. As played, if you truly believe this to be an accident, I would jam over his "raise" as you are likely ahead of his range.
  • snafusnafu Red Chipper Posts: 56 ✭✭
    edited July 2017
    You should fold preflop. Since you didn't, you should fold now. Villain started the hand with $130...that's not near enough to 1) setmine with 66 or 2) 3-bet with 66. The only way I'd ever consider jamming is if we have any semblance of Fold Equity...which in this spot you have zero given that he's already committed 2/3 of his stack in preflop. Also, as a general rule in live play, I think you should assume the worst when it comes to situations that could possibly be angle shooting by villain. Until proven otherwise at least. You'd be surprised how much of it really goes on when someone thinks they can get away with it.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Matt V wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    If TT is a fold vs a limp raise range

    Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by this? Thanks.

    There is another Hand history we discussed stacking off with TT vs a limp raise. Check it out.

    forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/8763/villain-limp-reraises-my-open-was-i-dumb-to-shove-tt#latest

    That was a great discussion, but, in this case, V didn't limp raise. V was the initial raiser.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Matt V wrote: »
    1/3 NL.

    I'm in the big blind with :6s:6c .

    Villain is a very aggressive player. I can't say whether he's loose or tight, but he seems to play a wider than average range for the table. He's in the cutoff with ~$130, I have him covered.

    Folds to villain who raises to $16. Button folds, SB folds. I raise to $38.

    What does a raise to $38 accomplish??

    While my default would be to fold here, I could see you making an aggressive play against this villain. If so, though, you've got to raise it to much more. One option would be around $55, giving you enough to cbet/shove if V calls. Or you could just bomb the pot and shove, putting V all in. Again, this is only IF you decide to be aggressive here -- but you if you are, then you have you have to be much more convincing than a raise to $38.
  • Matt VMatt V Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    What does a raise to $38 accomplish??

    Good question. I guess at time I was thinking there is a large chance villain is attempting a blind steal and thus has a wide range and there's a reasonable chance I can get him to fold to a raise and if called, 66 isn't a terrible hand.
  • snafusnafu Red Chipper Posts: 56 ✭✭
    Matt V wrote: »
    What does a raise to $38 accomplish??
    Matt V wrote: »
    Good question. I guess at time I was thinking there is a large chance villain is attempting a blind steal
    There is.

    Matt V wrote: »
    and thus has a wide range
    Very reasonable assumption.

    Matt V wrote: »
    and there's a reasonable chance I can get him to fold to a raise
    Not with your sizing.

    Matt V wrote: »
    and if called, 66 isn't a terrible hand.
    Short of flopping a set or an oesd, I'm going to disagree with this. You'll be facing overcards and playing the guessing game on the vast majority of flops moving forward. You lack position, you lack stack depth to play this hand profitably, and even if you have superior postflop ability, those two issues are too much to overcome.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Against this range a loose player may call An extra $22 preflop (2.4x raise over the 16 open) and which case 66 is ahead with 56%.

    8hg2rtm40hup.png

    Against a tighter range because you said you don't know if he is loose or tight. 66 becomes 47% which is still ok given the odds if you shove preflop. It seems so wrong though to shove 66 here against 5x open. Does he usually open to $16?

    iahrye48qkrg.png
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    Doesn't everything seem wrong with 66 here?

    Folding makes sense, but seems wrong.
    3 betting with poor visibility and low SPR seems wrong.
    We don't have the odds too set mine.
    Shoving seems like too big an over bet, and pushing equity.

    But.... This is our life and we must choose the best option. I don't like folding vs a loose and aggressive player.

    With a small three bet we will face most flops with an underpair and bluff off the rest of our stack.

    Are we really shoving our small pairs over 5x opens 65 bb deep?

    I like a call and play post flop. Look for boards that favor us and go with them.
  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    I agree with @eugeniusjr. Folding 66 here seems stupid nitty tight - it makes practical sense cuz of stacks but still, it seems kooky. What do we call here? What do we raise, considering the stacks? I feel like call and then c/r/f an uncoordinated board. 572, 38J, etc. Again I get the advice because of stacks but 66 is not a terrible hand! 22 yes, 33 yes, 44 yes. But 66?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    This is all grasping at straws, get to the essentials of planning your hand and play the stack vis a vis your equity. This is the essential, here and everywhere. If your hand is too valuable to turn into a bluff, take an action that retains its equity. If this reraise is to induce, which it should against a short stack strat with significsnt equity, your money should already be in the middle. If it can't be, you've chosen the wrong hand to raise or you should know this portion of your range is r/f. The accident of his reraise is actually trivial because it should be a possibility you considered the moment you evaluated your hand against his stack and possible reactions. Guessing at equities after he puts in the leveraging or final bet preflop is a sign something was wrong long before.
  • Matt VMatt V Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    snafu wrote: »
    Not with your sizing.

    What would a better sizing here be?
    snafu wrote: »
    Short of flopping a set or an oesd, I'm going to disagree with this. You'll be facing overcards and playing the guessing game on the vast majority of flops moving forward. You lack position, you lack stack depth to play this hand profitably, and even if you have superior postflop ability, those two issues are too much to overcome.

    If I put villain on a blind-steal range, e.g. something like: 22+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, A7o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o, 43o, 32o. Then I have 55% equity. So maybe shove is the right play?
  • Matt VMatt V Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Does he usually open to $16?

    He would limp 50% of the time and raise to $13-$16 the other 50% of the time. (More frequently in late position.)

  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    I would shove. I think we're 50-55% here against their range, so I don't mind trying for thin-value (and possibly burning ourselves) if a good spot presents itself (such as this). If their 4! was not an accident, we likely just fold because our tiny bet-sizing allows for a raise/fold vs. a narrow 4! range (though I don't love that plan personally).

    Also I think I prefer the 3! pre against a wide opener because A) we're way ahead of his opening range & doing OK against most of his calling range (if he's on the sticky spectrum) B) he's too shallow for us to set-mine & our hand plays pretty bad as a call out-of-position C) we'll likely be able to take it down w/ a CB whether we hit a set or not. However, I think I prefer sizing bigger pre-flop because I'm not terribly interested in doing alot of clever 3!/folding that makes fine sense at 100BB but is sort of spewing chips away @ short-mid stacks. Plus it's occasionally good for your image in these spots not to fold after getting 4! shoved on against a short-guy IYAM.

    Cheers.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Based on the description of villain, I don't think folding is the play. If villain is playing a noticeably wide range, then we can certainly attack him, and I think 66 is more than good enough.

    I think calling is our worst option. We're essentially attempting to set mine, which villain's stack isn't big enough to interest us in that path. So, raising becomes our only option. Our sizing is key because of villains short stack size--we need to raise an amount large enough that puts villain to a raise or fold decision. I think the $38 sizing is close, but still too small--the $60-$80 area sounds about right. It's important to understand that once we decide to play this hand, our goal is to simply be all in preflop.

    V's wide range + V's short stack + Hero's hand equity = We're all in!

  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    How often do you guys play with 65bb stacks at the table?

    There are several at every 1-2 table I've sat in the past three months.

    3! shoving is pushing a small equity edge. Is this really what we are doing with our middling pairs? How many of you are shoving irl in this spot? You'll have to shove often. It's neat to suggest shoving off table in a vacuum but I don't see happening it at the table.

    What's the strongest range villain comes here with that we are happy to see? Show me how much of that range he folds when we shove, and our EV there, and our EV when he calls?

  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2017
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    How often do you guys play with 65bb stacks at the table?

    There are several at every 1-2 table I've sat in the past three months.

    3! shoving is pushing a small equity edge. Is this really what we are doing with our middling pairs? How many of you are shoving irl in this spot? You'll have to shove often. It's neat to suggest shoving off table in a vacuum but I don't see happening it at the table.

    What's the strongest range villain comes here with that we are happy to see? Show me how much of that range he folds when we shove, and our EV there, and our EV when he calls?

    Sounds like you're suggesting a call? If so, what's the plan after we whiff the flop?
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    None of the options seems clearly superior to me here. Calling and playing poker postflop seems like the least bad plan.

    Let's give villain A,K,Q,J,T,9. We take the rest.
  • Matt VMatt V Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    edited July 2017
    The outcome:
    I call. Flop is :Kc:4s:2d. I check. Villain shoves. I call. He tables 55. I hit a set on the turn. I don't remember what the river card was and I didn't write it down. (It wasn't a 3.)
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    None of the options seems clearly superior to me here. Calling and playing poker postflop seems like the least bad plan.

    Let's give villain A,K,Q,J,T,9. We take the rest.

    Don't forget we're playing 43bb effective. Not sure there's much room to play post.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    Good point. I have been thinking this is 1-2, not 1-3.

    It's a two street stack.
  • Zak YZak Y Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    Sounds like an angle shot and he is trying to sucker you into giving him action,. I would lay this down.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 285 ✭✭
    Wow. Lot of anyalisis here. This is an easy fold. Your only in for $16 and villain has at least 2 over cards. Why play a big pot here? There will be better spots. Whether its an angle shoot or accident doesn't really change the fact that he likes his hand. And we should assume his hand isn't 45s (which is the best you could hope for).

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