Lampman Playing Premium Hands Pt. 2

Jason LawrenceJason Lawrence Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
In the second hand on this video, he 3-bets to 9bb OOP, but then OTF continues for 1/3 pot, or roughly 6bb. I understand this is not unusual online.

My question is for people playing live: how weak do you think it looks to most live players to bet OOP an amount less than your 3-bet? Would you still read this type of bet from most live villains as a blocker or otherwise representing a holding weak enough to be prone to being blown off by a raise?

Comments

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    The idea behind the 1/3 bet is not really as a blocker bet. A 1/3 sizing in 3B pot is really hard for V to defend properly. It helps H to bet all his range also. It render H decision easy on flop where its tougher for V so the weight of the mistakes are on V shoulders and if H can hand read well and play Turn more solidly then V, then it is a great and powerful weapon to have vs. players that won't adjust well and bring weak ranges Turn.

    I would assume that Live, players will have a tendencies to call a lot vs. a 1/3 bet then they will lend on Turn with weak ranges because you will bet strong hands also 1/3 on flop. So as i said prior, if you can outplay V Turn, He will probably compound mistakes on the toughest street in poker.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    I don't know who Brad has naked photos of in a compromising position: but how he ever became a RCP coach is beyond me!

    Notice in his bio it says he's "accumulated over 2 million hands online" since he turned 19. Not $2 Canadian dollars. But 2 million hands!

    He's probably still playing 5¢/10¢ and living in his parent's basement.... since he translates everything into BB and not real money. I can see it now: "Mom, can I borrow fifty big blinds to go to the McDonalds to get a Happy Meal?"

    Mid-stakes pro - my ass! If he ever walked into my casino, he'd get his ducktailed-bearded grinning face wiped all over our nasty, flowered indoor/outdoor carpet!
    And that's just at our ⅓ tables.

    If he ever moved up to our 2/5 or 5/10 stakes - I'd be willing to wager that he would lose his entire bankroll in just a few short months! (@Brad Lampman PM me if you want to take me up on that - I've got $1,000 cold American dollars that says you can't beat our 5/10 game that only runs once a week! BTW - we play 10-handed and uncapped! Come on down to NOLA and see how we'll shove that 6.14bb c-bet right up your online GTO-pretending #$%$@&%#@%!!!!! But be weary, I'm gonna let Poker New and all the Twitter universe know that you're coming down here to a good ole' American ass-kicking!)

    That said: NOOOO!
    Do NOT ever bet 6.14BB with :AS::KC: on a :4C::5C::KH: board in a live venue!
    And IF you do - do NOT ever check the :6H: and go into a check/call shell.... like a little girl! Holy bat sh*t - this guy is trying to take us back to 1983!!!

    I don't know what the hell has happened to this site.... but some of these videos are worse than horrible! I think @Christian Soto should PAY ME to watch strategically-unsound videos by no-name 24-year-old 2-million-hand playing Canucks like Lampman's recent trash.

    @Jason Lawrence ignore Lampman videos. Just rewatch the Soto videos and check out Doug Polk's Hand of the Day series on YouTube. You'll learn how to play more correctly live by watching live, winning players than you would you-know-who.
  • Dean MDean M Red Chipper Posts: 184 ✭✭✭
    LOL - @kagey - you really should be so subtle in your opinions :)
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It really hurts my soul to see what was once a prominent poker training site turn into a "me too" poker website.

    Imagine a very smart website dedicated to high school football that's founded by some of the giants in college football: Urban Meyer, Jimmy Johnson, Jim Harbaugh and Lane Kiffin (one of Saban's proteges). And they've got videos on how to win games... and even Nick Saban shows up every now and again and talks football with Kiffin. Pretty cool, huh?

    Now imagine they bring in some young pup who's only ever coached pee wee football. And he starts making videos for them saying that after the quarterback hands off the football to the running back, he should help the fullback block! What? (Sure in pop warner football, everybody does everything - but if every QB blocked for his running back, there'd be no healthy QBs left in the game!)

    I'll all for having videos that can contradict one another - because there are multiple ways to play winning poker... but encouraging players to bet small with top/top and then check calling to the river to get to cheap showdown is the single worst possible way to make money.

    BTW - why is this guy even making videos for RCP? His biggest accomplishment is having played 2 million hands online. WTF is that? Like two weeks of 24-tabling?

    Are coaching jobs as RCP the new participation trophies for millennials? This dude has been a professional for less than 2 years and now he's coaching? WTF? What's his pedigree? What results does he have that makes RCP founders even think that he has something to offer that they can't?

    My heart breaks at the sight of RCP handing over the reins to a 24-year-old online wannabe who couldn't even beat a live ⅓ game. I know nothing can remain as it once was. I acknowledge that the founders don't have the time to respond to posts as they did in 2014... or to create short videos in response to post. I realize some of the founders are tired or busy with other pursuits (like watching Punky Brewster). We're all human. It's okay to not have the time, passion or desire to continue working on your pet project.

    But PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE find accomplished players to carry on your legacy! (Guys like Lee Markholt - to name one- would be a good fit.) Asking some dude who's major accomplishment is grinding mid-stakes online games really seems to have lowered the bar a bit too far, imho.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    @kagey As always, you are more than welcome to your opinion. But your entire post reads like a "look how big my junk is" post and really offers nothing of value. Yes, your "I don't give AF" shtick is endearing, but either offer some constructive criticism or really anything other than a "HU4ROLLZLOL".
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  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kagey, I love you but it's not that easy. The truth is not every strong player or coach wants to or even can make videos. Even some of those great names the lowstakes community has relied on just aren't as passionate about it right now. (I don't want to name names but let's say a hypothetical one that rhymes with Red Filler.) They are time consuming, require more than just poker skill but what would otherwise be completely unrelated talents, and are not even as lucrative as a few hours at a good table for many illustrious players.

    Lee Markholt is a great idea, I bet a longtime grinder like yourself can add to that list, and we'll all find other great names if we look. Maybe we can all help the partners here scour the scene for names.

    Meanwhile i can assure you there is value in the Lampman work, even if it's not for everyone or every game or is just a catalyst for argument. His bluffcatching video is a good refresher and will help clean up the technical game of many players at this forum.

    Finally, has it occured to you that you have outgrown many of the concepts presented at RC? Actually, I know you have, and you do too.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    @kagey As always, you are more than welcome to your opinion. But your entire post reads like a "look how big my junk is" post and really offers nothing of value. Yes, your "I don't give AF" shtick is endearing, but either offer some constructive criticism or really anything other than a "HU4ROLLZLOL".

    James - it's really not a d**k waving contest here... and if you knew me, you'd know that I don't go down those roads.... criticisms? I've done it before - and I'll do it again.

    You guys started as primarily a LIVE cash poker site - and it was what attracted me to this. I don't know if you or any of the founders personally review the material before it's offered to subscribers - but sometimes I seriously wonder if you guys would find value in this specific video.

    How do you improve or expand the Red Chip model to attract more subscribers?
    How about you continue to focus on the live avenue and begin to offer videos on other games: PLO, 2-7, Razz, Omaha, Stud, etc. (I remember you used to have a couple offered that were fan-freaking-tastic! but you pulled them down.) As I mentioned before, expand your live tournament section. I think JY Master is the bomb, but he doesn't seem to want to do any videos (and give up his secrets!) - which I fully understand. But there are other tourney pros out there that would probably love to offer their take on how to beat live tournies.

    As a marketing counsultant (who's worked with numerous Fortune 100 companies) - I first ask my clients, "what is your mission statement?" "What is your purpose?" "How are you different from your competitors?" "What is your value-added proposition?" I'm sure somewhere in y'all business papers, somebody somewhere wrote down why you, Ed, Doug and Chin should get together and create a site. I feel as if I've stumbled upon this site and feel like I understood your mission statement (which is why I subscribed)... and now feel like nobody's watching the farm... (or whatever that expression is)

    I used to be subscribed to Phil's Ivey League - but he was doing what y'all seemed to be doing. He allowed a bunch of no-name, cocky players to create videos that were flat out WRONG! I challenged one of the coaches (who made a video on what makes a good bluff) and he agreed to put the hand in question on 2+2. He got more than 12 responses from non-trollers about how his bluff line was poor, bad, stupid... with a couple of poster inviting him to join them at their home game (since his line was so preposterous). He doesn't coach there any more.

    You think I'm just being a jerk and picking on Brad - then post this AK hand on 2+2 (or I can) and ask experienced online players what they think of his line. I know Chin doesn't subscribe to "group think" but if you can't admit that Brad's AK-line isn't full of Monsters Under the Bed Syndrome, then me thinks you're too close to the situation. I'm pretty confident that if you asked other experienced players - they too would say that Brad's "instructions" are just downright bad. It really should have no place in the RCP library.

    Yes @persuadeo - nobody saying it's "easy" to make smart, thoughtful, engaging videos. But if the coaching is going to be poor, then subscribers have the right to bitch.
    (And yes, sadly I think I probably should just move on...)

    Look - as I've said before - the world doesn't need another Online Poker Training Site.
    Dueces Cracked, Pocket 5s, CardRunners, BlueFire, RunItOnce, Upswing, etc. etc. etc
    But it can really use a poker training site that focuses on LIVE poker games. (There, I'm giving you your mission statement.)

    Grab well-respected live players like Markholt, Seidel, Oppenheim, ODBaker, Benyamin (hell, create content in French!) etc; partner with instructors like Zach Elwood (as you've done in the past), bring aboard some top female LIVE players like Harman, Cate Hall, Shahade, Boeree or whatever (but please don't invite Ho... she's really a bad player)... focus on making the content so good that you can INCREASE your prices. Hell, set a max goal of something like 250 subscribers ONLY (or whatever number your business needs to be profitable) and start a waiting list. As your list grows - increase your prices until you've reached a Nash level! Become "exclusive." Focus on quality, not quantity.

    The only reason I challenged the online Canuck to come play in my games is I know that he'll get HAMMERED here if he truly uses the horrible betting lines that he suggests. The proof is in the pudding. Poker is poker... and the "why" for your actions should translate. If online theory can't translate to live games - then RCP really is giving us live game players the shaft.... and I know that isn't your intention.

    Back to the original post:
    Jason asked a simple and sincere question... would Brad's AK line be something that you @SplitSuit or me would use in a live setting? I've already said my piece, what says you?
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    In the second hand on this video, he 3-bets to 9bb OOP, but then OTF continues for 1/3 pot, or roughly 6bb. I understand this is not unusual online.

    My question is for people playing live: how weak do you think it looks to most live players to bet OOP an amount less than your 3-bet? Would you still read this type of bet from most live villains as a blocker or otherwise representing a holding weak enough to be prone to being blown off by a raise?

    You can use smaller sizings like this live, too. But know when and why. Looking weak is not a good metric for whether an action should be taken. Just be prepared for how your opponent will react and have a planned counteraction.
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    @kagey I agree with what @persuadeo wrote: the strong players aren't necessarily interested in making videos and you have probably outgrown the site, rather than the site itself declining. That is the case for me, too.

    It's true there isn't much material here (or anywhere) that will help someone crush mid- to high-stakes live poker. I don't think the site cares to cater to that niche and, regardless, the people qualified likely aren't interested in producing the content.

    How well does it pay to make videos? I'd imagine coaching delivers a better hourly. I assume most produce content only to promote their own coaching business.

    Further, to be even more cynical, what do content producers gain from our success? If they just brain dump all their most valuable ideas in a few videos, that's a great deal for us but not them. They benefit from our dependence. Keep us coming back for the steady drip of Playing Premium Hands, or Pocket Jacks, or other vapidity.

    Once you have the framework of a strategy (not found here but elsewhere, as you have) then building it out as well as its tactics and deviations should consume all of your study time.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    kagey wrote: »
    Jason asked a simple and sincere question... would Brad's AK line be something that you @SplitSuit or me would use in a live setting? I've already said my piece, what says you?

    I will largely second @persuadeo and @porter. If you've outgrown the PRO Membership, that's a good thing. It's likely time to shut it down and either look to other coaches for a more personalized experience or dive down the rabbit hole in another way.

    I get that you were here from the beginning, and we love you for it. But RCP is evolving, and just like you are not the same player today that you were 3 years ago, neither is our product. That is to the benefit of some players, and at the same time we acknowledge that some like yourself may not like it. We can't please everyone at all times. We also know that you have to make the best decision for you - and either way we're just happy to have helped you improve your game in whatever we that we could.

    As to your question, of course a single sizing strategy won't be universally applicable. That's like me asking you "could you never find a spot where 1/3rd pot is the best size there?"
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  • Brad LampmanBrad Lampman RCP Coach Posts: 4 ✭✭
    In the second hand on this video, he 3-bets to 9bb OOP, but then OTF continues for 1/3 pot, or roughly 6bb. I understand this is not unusual online.

    My question is for people playing live: how weak do you think it looks to most live players to bet OOP an amount less than your 3-bet? Would you still read this type of bet from most live villains as a blocker or otherwise representing a holding weak enough to be prone to being blown off by a raise?

    Hey Jason!

    I haven't played live in over a year so but assuming the games haven't changed much I generally wouldn't use a small cbet sizing. In this scenario id be going for pure exploitative value vs an unknown live player who will likely call down too wide against large bets. If I saw live players making this betsizing I would assume it's a weaker blocker bet unless I know the player well enough as a strong player, in which case I wouldn't make any assumptions.

    1/3 sizing wont be very necessary live though as your 3bet pre ranges should be generally tighter than online and since open/3bet sizings are larger you will have an easier time playing a 2 street game which would be ideal in that specific hand scenario, so likely a much larger bet otf will allow you to shove most turns extremely profitably.

    If you want more info on the 1/3 betsizing strat online then I would happily explain it if you were to pm me or email me at [email protected]


    as for @kagey

    im not really sure what to say to a live player calling me out haha. but fwiw I already do play 5/10 live (Ive sat up to 10/25/50 live) with good results and have amassed profits in the 6 digits playing 200nl-1knl online. I doubt there is any regular 5/10 live game today that I wouldn't happily sit at. Maybe Ill see you there some day ;)

    On the other hand, feel free to jump online at 200zoom on Stars or 200zone on bodog and we can see who's long term stats stack up better :)


    Cheers,
    Brad
  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭


    im not really sure what to say to a live player calling me out haha.

    Cheers,
    Brad

    Brad,

    I have no dog in this fight. I also generally have been known to not agree w/ @kagey very often. However, I think on this site in particular, the above comment was a bad idea.

    cXt
  • derdonkerderdonker San Jose, CA USARed Chipper Posts: 125 ✭✭
    I'm glad we got a response from Brad. I'm not sure about challenging Kagey to a duel, but a rationale for his strategy was welcomed by me, anyway.
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    I second @SplitSuit , @porter and @persuadeo

    @kagey not everything stays the same and as u progress u should look for different avenues to make sure ure game keeps progressing

    If u have feedback share it but dont attack ppl. Your energy could be spent much better
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  • Brad LampmanBrad Lampman RCP Coach Posts: 4 ✭✭

    im not really sure what to say to a live player calling me out haha.

    Cheers,
    Brad

    Brad,

    I have no dog in this fight. I also generally have been known to not agree w/ @kagey very often. However, I think on this site in particular, the above comment was a bad idea.

    cXt

    Fair enough, this shouldnt turn into an online vs live debate, especially on a site that seems to be live heavy (I never knew this actually as I was just asked to create online content as an online player).

    But at the same time I will continue to put out online centered content unless asked otherwise to put in live content. I have only played about 1k hours of live poker and while I've won over that sample, it doesn't really scratch my online earnings. This is because my proficiency is in online poker but have learned to adapt to the differences in live play fairly easily.

    There are very few live players who can do the same from live to online and it is for an obvious reason. Again im not going to make this into a live vs online thing or attack live players over it. Its just how it is. Live poker generates billions of hands a year where Online poker pushes a trillion. Online poker has simply progressed as a game light years past live and that is why so many online guys (young and old) have taken over the live scene.

    The simple fact is, there is a lot of of theoretical content that I've put up that translates very well into live play. That being said, some of it won't at all, and I think a regular 1/3 betting strategy is something that probably wouldnt. I have definitely used it effectively live before, but in a much more exploitative way. In the video we are making a very standard theoretical bet sizing in this situation.

    As for @kagey if he wants to go on a very long and cringe-worthy rant about that area and how it isn't applicable to live games, that is his right. Even if he does have his head incredibly deep in the sand when it comes to what good poker is.

    as for the hand, I just reviewed it and I believe there is merit to barreling big ott, but in theory I think we can definitely split our AK combos between checking and betting and since we have the Kc I sided for checking in this instance. In the video I didnt explain the bet/bet line much on flop and turn but it would be fine to bet turn here for sure.

    But to say that my line was wrong shows a very strong lack of understanding of fundamental poker which makes the whole rant about it a little arrogant. Between that and talk of fortune 100 companies, I have to agree with Sweeney that his posts just sound like a lot of dick swinging. He says something about posting it on the 2p2 forums which is laughable. If you really want good info I could always ask around and get some actual high stakes pros to review this hand.


    In the meantime, if @kagey would like to challenge me to a hu battle on say ACR/BCP (sounds like hes American so the only online sites available with identity confirmation) then I would be happy to work out some sort of grudge match.

    All the best,
    Brad
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Ok guys, we will need to make this happen quick since we will be eclipsed on the 26th of august when the earth will stop spinning, so promo need to start tonight.

    @kagey is a man of his words and I know that if there is someone on this site that put his money where his mouth is it is surely @Kagey the real American way.

    Speaking of this we will need a strong nick name name for both of you guys so RCP members can start to post suggestions.

    @Brad Lampman have accepted the challenge so we should start to define what will be the fine points of it ?

    Will you guys split the challenge between online and live?

    How many hands ?

    Side bets ?

    What are the odds ? Members could post suggestions also we need to define that.

    We need to move quick on this one.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    kagey wrote: »
    Back to the original post:
    Jason asked a simple and sincere question... would Brad's AK line be something that you @SplitSuit or me would use in a live setting? I've already said my piece, what says you?

    I see I missed this question and am not dodging it.

    I use downbets all the time in live games, and to great effect, on both coasts, in every place I go. However...

    The issue is understanding why and how they work. There was a recent hand on the S4Y Twitch stream which showcased a player who didn't know what he was doing at all and getting owned. That's exactly what's going to happen if you are just mimicking Sauce, or what in this case, Brad is doing, or some dude with an excel sheet and a RIO account is slaving over.

    In may come as a shock to many, but there is no actual essential difference between live and online poker. (There are many reasons as to why everything turned out as they did, and understanding those is more important than having a 2+2 level hack's opinion of LOL Live Poker or its reverse.) Everything is a response to wagering via stack, position, runout and the 3rd dimension adjustment of responding to how every opponent reacts. We'll do things differently in each venue, but this is us merely reacting to environmental assumptions and ingrained culture, not the theory of how stacks, position, and runout work.

    For instance, when I look at Snowie, I understand why it is doing what it does and extrapolate that to what happens in live games from there. Or as a counterexample, when you hear someone talking about MDF on the river and forming their calling frequencies from there, you know they have no idea what they are talking about, because they haven't made the transition from big picture to actual opponent. Or in my games, when the latest goofball Polkite mumbles he "has to call with this hand, too high in my range" and gets shown the goods for the 5th time in a row, you can see that without the Why, you're just dead.

    You don't have to know much about poker to actually win it turns out, but to be truly good at this game, you have to release ideas of stake and venue, otherwise everything is a mystery and a bracing against player pool, when in fact, everything can be explained through theory.
  • Brad LampmanBrad Lampman RCP Coach Posts: 4 ✭✭
    Ok guys, we will need to make this happen quick since we will be eclipsed on the 26th of august when the earth will stop spinning, so promo need to start tonight.

    @kagey is a man of his words and I know that if there is someone on this site that put his money where his mouth is it is surely @Kagey the real American way.

    Speaking of this we will need a strong nick name name for both of you guys so RCP members can start to post suggestions.

    @Brad Lampman have accepted the challenge so we should start to define what will be the fine points of it ?

    Will you guys split the challenge between online and live?

    How many hands ?

    Side bets ?

    What are the odds ? Members could post suggestions also we need to define that.

    We need to move quick on this one.


    Id do online (live wont happen since we likely live nowhere near eachother)

    for 2.5k-5k hands, no more no less.

    Id do 100nl, 2-4 tables, no more no less

    1k cash max (10bi) and you win what you end with after X amount of hands or until someone busts the other for 10bi.

    side bets whatever people want, im not big on prop bets myself.

    Id be more than willing to do the above with an escrow (preferably someone trusted within RCP Management)
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    you know - I wan't going to respond - but since @Brad Lampman has got a pretty big chip on his shoulder... I'll bite

    First there are MORE THAN ONE items I discussed in my posts. We can break them down into:
    1.) Brad's play of AK is a terrible way to play the hand
    2.) Brad resume is less than impressive - and based on how he advises to play AK from oop seems like he couldn't consistently beat my poker room's ⅓ game
    3.) RCP's divergence into online content as a means to capture additional subscribers is -EV

    Let's start with #1
    As for @kagey if he wants to go on a very long and cringe-worthy rant about that area and how it isn't applicable to live games, that is his right. Even if he does have his head incredibly deep in the sand when it comes to what good poker is.

    as for the hand, I just reviewed it and I believe there is merit to barreling big ott, but in theory I think we can definitely split our AK combos between checking and betting and since we have the Kc I sided for checking in this instance. In the video I didnt explain the bet/bet line much on flop and turn but it would be fine to bet turn here for sure.

    But to say that my line was wrong shows a very strong lack of understanding of fundamental poker which makes the whole rant about it a little arrogant.

    For those of you in the cheap seats the hand plays like this:

    Brad/Hero is in SB with 192.24BB after posting his 0.5BB.
    He holds :AS::KC:
    The HJ or UTG+2 opens 2.25BB from his 112.90 BB stack.
    It fold to B/H who 3-bets 9BB.
    HJ calls.
    Pot is 19BB
    Flop is: :KH::4C::5C:
    B/H bets 6.14BB
    (His reasoning: to encourage V to call wider and "pot controlling")
    V calls.

    Pot: 31.27BB
    T: :6H:
    B/H decides to check the turn because "if I'd be lost if V raises us" - so the plan is to check/call for two streets.
    V bets 9.87BB. B/H calls.

    Pot: 51BB
    River :QD:
    B/H checks to give V a chance to "bluff"
    V checks and shows :JH::JC:

    Fundamental poker tells us that we should play our made hands the same way we play our bluffs. So in this hand: are we ever bluffing? Do we have ANY bluffs in our range?
    Do we ever have anything other than a K in our hand?

    So what exactly are we doing here? We're playing AK weakly and hoping that V makes a mistake. As played, we allowed V to play his hand perfectly and we got paid the minimum. I don't know about you, but my strategy is to force my opponents to make mistakes and in the meantime, win chips.

    Don't think that I'm unfamilar with Janda's work or PIO Solver or Poker Snowie. While theoretically, these ⅓ betting lines look good on paper - but do little to contribute to your bottom line in a cash game setting.

    So at the core of my "cringe-worthy rant" is this hand:
    Is this a good example of a well-played hand?
    Me thinks: NOT!

    This is a terrible betting line. Playing passive and offering perfect odds for a player to call with flush and straight draws is a horrible way to play poker.

    Mind you - this is a 3-bet pot. So ranges should be stronger ... meaning more value heavy - so we should be able to get more value on more streets.

    That said: I'm glad Brad admits that being ⅓ pot in Live is bad.
    At least that much, we agree on.

    But let's take it one step further...
    Is this ever a good betting line online?
    He says something about posting it on the 2p2 forums which is laughable. If you really want good info I could always ask around and get some actual high stakes pros to review this hand.

    Now Brad seems to think posting this hand on 2+2 is LOL... and being that there are a lot of trolls there - I could see that getting valuable feedback might be difficult.
    But what about on RunItOnce? Or another online training poker forum?

    I'm very certain that most winning players or online pros would poo-poo Brad's betting line as played. Checking the turn gives V PERFECT odds to realize the equity in his hand and name his price for such an endeavor.

    So this is my beef with Brad and RCP... if you're putting content out there to "teach" players how to think/play... the content should hold up outside our site.
    Me thinks, this example doesn't.
    Between that and talk of fortune 100 companies, I have to agree with Sweeney that his posts just sound like a lot of dick swinging.

    Now let's move over to point #3.
    If Brad was clever enough to read what I actually posted - and not some fantasy in his head, he would see that my "talk of Fortune 100 companies" has NOTHING to do with poker, and everything to do with my free marketing advice to Sweeney (& founders) as how to manage the Red Chip Poker brand. As I've stated, my background is in advertising - and I have a resume to back that up.

    There was no dick swinging here... only marketing advice to James on how he's diluting RCP's expertise in live poker by providing (bad) online content, which I predict will have long-term negative consequences to his bottom line. I offered a business mission statement as to how RCP can compete in a crowded marketplace and how he could expand the brand without venturing into the online arena.

    Speaking of marketing - one look at Brad's coaching website explains why he doesn't understand what I was advising James. In all his public material he seems to make it a point to let everybody know that he's a Canadian Poker Player... as if being from Canada is relevant to questions such as:
    can he coach poker? is he a winning poker player?

    Now we can say that maybe he makes it a point because he's proud to be a citizen of the country that brought us Celine Dion & Justin Beber. But if that's the case, then why in the world's most cliche of photos does Brad shows himself standing on a beach with palm trees. What Canadian beach might that be? Polar Bear Provincial Park? Or Moresby Island?

    Furthermore - when I search his site for notable accomplishments (other than the foremention 2 million online hands) such as WSOP bracelets, huge WPT scores, SCOOP deep cashes or wins... etc. etc.... this was provided to me:

    jlcvdoedfdpq.jpg

    And finally - to point #2.
    In the meantime, if @kagey would like to challenge me to a hu battle on say ACR/BCP (sounds like hes American so the only online sites available with identity confirmation) then I would be happy to work out some sort of grudge match.

    There was nothing in my posts to indicate that I had any desire to play HU4ROLLZ.

    My contention was that Brad's poker skills are so lacking that he could not beat our deepstack 1/3 games - and if he moved up, he would get annihilated in our 2/5 and 5/10 game. I felt so strongly so that I would wager 1k American dollars that if he came to Harrah's New Orleans, after a realistic sample size, he would return to the beaches of the Great White North as a loser. A sad, sad loser.


    In the end: yes I'm ranting.
    But I do so out of the love for RCP and poker... and what it stood for:

    When your beloved Edmonton Oilers trade a star wingman for some poor defensiveman, does your blood not boil? When the Blue Jays keep a tired pitcher in the line-up that causes your opponents to score 3 runs in the 6th, are you not frustrated? When Chris Fergusson sits alongside you in the WSOP as if nothing was done wrong... can we not become infuriated? Are we not allowed to rage when our cherished institutions make faulty decisions that can have negative consequences?

    I realize for you, Brad, this is just another video that brings in $XX in income... but to me it's bigger than that. And THIS is why I post.
  • Brad LampmanBrad Lampman RCP Coach Posts: 4 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    kagey wrote: »
    Back to the original post:
    Jason asked a simple and sincere question... would Brad's AK line be something that you @SplitSuit or me would use in a live setting? I've already said my piece, what says you?

    I see I missed this question and am not dodging it.

    I use downbets all the time in live games, and to great effect, on both coasts, in every place I go. However...

    The issue is understanding why and how they work. There was a recent hand on the S4Y Twitch stream which showcased a player who didn't know what he was doing at all and getting owned. That's exactly what's going to happen if you are just mimicking Sauce, or what in this case, Brad is doing, or some dude with an excel sheet and a RIO account is slaving over.

    In may come as a shock to many, but there is no actual essential difference between live and online poker. (There are many reasons as to why everything turned out as they did, and understanding those is more important than having a 2+2 level hack's opinion of LOL Live Poker or its reverse.) Everything is a response to wagering via stack, position, runout and the 3rd dimension adjustment of responding to how every opponent reacts. We'll do things differently in each venue, but this is us merely reacting to environmental assumptions and ingrained culture, not the theory of how stacks, position, and runout work.

    For instance, when I look at Snowie, I understand why it is doing what it does and extrapolate that to what happens in live games from there. Or as a counterexample, when you hear someone talking about MDF on the river and forming their calling frequencies from there, you know they have no idea what they are talking about, because they haven't made the transition from big picture to actual opponent. Or in my games, when the latest goofball Polkite mumbles he "has to call with this hand, too high in my range" and gets shown the goods for the 5th time in a row, you can see that without the Why, you're just dead.

    You don't have to know much about poker to actually win it turns out, but to be truly good at this game, you have to release ideas of stake and venue, otherwise everything is a mystery and a bracing against player pool, when in fact, everything can be explained through theory.


    This is a good post! I like how you word your thoughts. Its easy to get lost in the mumbo jumbo and forget how to really play the game.

    BTW I PIOed the hand in question and got a split strat of 80% cbet pot and 20% check, which seems reasonable to me. <5% to sizes between 1pot and 0pot which makes sense because its a fairly polarizing cbet and we cant bet fold so we just bet big to protect vs opponents equity. We check 20% to help protect our checking range, checking less with non club combos of AK.

    My mistakes in the video is to not point out the possibility of betting here or stating that it could definitely be a split strat. I mentioned how betting big twice might be too thin but that was an incorrect assumption. As a new coach I dont mind admitting when I make coaching mistakes, but as stated in my previous post, this is clearly not a technical game mistake and the sad call out I got from someone so clueless was obviously uncalled for. The play I made definitely contributed to part of the strat that would yield highest EV so I have no complaints there about it.


    Of course the challenge still stands :)

    Cheers,
    Brad
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kagey has dragged out one of many seemingly anonymous coaches that post videos here into our forum streets. That's the real win, whether Brad goes to NOLA and gets gumbo all over his face or not.

    Quick, somebody insult Andrew Brokos.
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Kagey has dragged out one of many seemingly anonymous coaches that post videos here into our forum streets. That's the real win, whether Brad goes to NOLA and gets gumbo all over his face or not.

    Quick, somebody insult Andrew Brokos.

    You know what they say: if you can't take the heat, stay out of the cajun.
  • derdonkerderdonker San Jose, CA USARed Chipper Posts: 125 ✭✭
    Man, this thread is great!

    I've never been to NOLA, and I look forward to watching in person.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    I have so many random thoughts about this thread -

    The AK 3B-1/3CB-mix on turn seem fine especially given we are facing online HJ C3B range. One reason why the small bets can be very effective both live and online when you have big range advantage, is because players just don't raise enough.

    I don't know why Kagey feels the need to attack the person(Brad) and not just talk poker

    Not sure why Kagey thinks what a bunch of randoms on 2+2, RIO, or any other forum has any real value.

    If Brad is beating 200 zoom(?) he would be big favorite in average live 5/10NL game

    There are a lot of training sites these days competing and a lot poker content that just meh. Very common for players to make a little money playing and then for whatever reason(s) switch their focus towards coaching and instead of playing. This is nothing new, and may training sites have turned a blind eye to this over the years.

    It really doesn't pay for a coach to make training videos unless they are lead to coaching clients, and they want build a poker coaching business.
  • JonasJonas Red Chipper Posts: 160 ✭✭
    I've never been to NOLA either so I volunteer to bring a computer/tablet and skype Brad in to physically make the moves he would.

    kasparovdeepblue.jpg
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    My two cents: I think live and online are two different games and really shouldn't be compared too much.
  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭
    This would have been the first time that a @Christian Soto post killed a thread. Just could not let that stand ...
  • Jason LawrenceJason Lawrence Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Wow - I had a busy end of my week (spent between work and time on the felt - weekend warrior type here, as if it wasn't obvious). I'm also strictly a live player.

    I appreciate the answers to my questions between the "lively" discussion I had no idea I'd be spawning. To me the "throwdown" I want to see is persuadeo vs Soto on "releas[ing[ ideas of stake and venue" sticking to pure theory, versus not comparing live and online games too much.

    One of my challenges right now is understanding bet sizing and range manipulation. I've had a few spots lately where I've min-raised (or raised between min to 125%) with really strong hands figuring that's the right play to manipulate a weaker range into calling, only to have friends I talk through hands with tell me it's terrible when they fold, because my line looks ridiculously strong, and a shove or bigger raise would look weaker. So I'm trying to understand both the theory (because a small range should induce the most calls, because odds/math), but also how my actions are perceived by opponents. Which is the philosophical genesis of my question.

    If anyone can recommend some videos, threads, or approaches to studying I should take to further refine my thinking here, I'd be most grateful.

    As for the fun stuff...

    If the NOLA showdown actually happens, I'd be happy to fly to one of my favorite American cities and host/moderate a friendly dinner at August, R'evolution, Commander's Palace, or any other fine establishment. That job has to fall to the clueless guy who started this, right?

    And Kagey, how frustrating is it when the Jays fail to record an out on two strikeouts in the same inning and lose on a walkoff in the 11th? Go Cubs Go. :)

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