KJ in the CO vs UTG raise

CASEY MCASEY M Red Chipper Posts: 168 ✭✭
Still early in a tournament. Hero has 65bb, Villain has 50ish and is a straight forward TAGish player.
No antes yet
Villain raises 3x from UTG
Folds to hero who flats with :Ks:Jd
Heads up to the flop.
pot is 7.5bb
:Kd:Td:9h
V bets 5bb
Hero calls
Pot is 17.5bb
Turn :5c
Villain bets 12bb

Hero?

Comments

  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    What do you think a basic-TAG is raising with in EP? How does KJo do against it? I think you can figure out where I'm going here.

    As played what do we beat on this turn? I can't find much.
  • OffTiltOffTilt Red Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    I would fold personally. You block the flush draws and straight draws that he may be betting with the Jack of diamonds in your hand. Only hands I think you beat are Queens and Jacks and I don't think they are double barreling here.
  • Jeffrey OJeffrey O Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    What range did you put him on prior to calling?

    I think you're something like 40% pot odds w/ 18% to catch a card that will make your hand.

    Fold....

    does someone want to double check my math

  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    I agree with the others about the preflop call so far. It's a 3bet or fold with this combo for me, I like to use KJo, KQo, AJo, ATo, etc for their blocker value and reasonable playability postflop as my bluffs in this spot. You can't use all of them all the time otherwise you will be overbluffing into a strong range, but if you know he's going to fold to a good amount of 3bets, IE not have the nuts every time he opens here, then you could 3bet this as a bluff.

    I'd fold pre 60-70% here and 3bet the rest
  • derdonkerderdonker San Jose, CA USARed Chipper Posts: 124 ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Pre-flop: Villain described as TAG (rather than NIT), so I give him a range like: TT+, AOo+, ATs+ (5%), which might be too tight. Hero calls with KsJd. Since Villain raised, either call or fold, since raising doesn't isolate more than Villain's raise. Hero call is good.

    Flop: KdTd9h is good for Hero, with top pair, 3rd kicker, no overs. Villain is aggressive, so he predictably c-bets 2/3pot, which doesn't narrow Villain's range at all, and it could be wider if initial range was too tight. Since Hero played this hand, and the Flop came favorably, I believe a raise is warranted, or at least a call with the expectation of raising the Turn.

    Turn: 5c is a blank. Villain bets 2/3pot again. Since Hero entered the hand in the first place, and the Flop was favorable, then called Flop, I suggest a Raise the Turn. (or why call Flop?) If Villain re-raises, Hero is in a tough spot, and should probably fold. If Villain calls, on River Hero may want to fold facing aggression, and bet facing passivity (check).
  • CASEY MCASEY M Red Chipper Posts: 168 ✭✭
    Hero ended up calling turn and as soon as I did the range analysis in my head kicked in and I realized I was probably behind. My thought process is still slow and the old habits of going with TP are still around.
    Preflop I put him on

    77+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,JTs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo


    Hes very straight forward and yes the cbet is standard, the second barrel for him is not.

    As soon as made the turn call
    I figured him for

    99+,AKs,ATs,KTs+,QJs,AKo,KQo,QJo

    Too little too late! Im behind soooo much here.

    Villain checks the brick river and I bet 20bb into the 42bb pot. I didnt think I could win at showdown.
    Villain tanked and ended up calling with AKo

    I lost over half my stack. I think this really showed me how important it is to take some time. If I thought for a bit longer on the turn I think I wouldve found the fold.

    And I agree that against this particular type of villain a 3bet or fold pre is a better play.

    I walked away from the table after this hand for a bit. I wasnt tilting I just knew that I rushed my play and that cost me a lot.

    Came back after two hands and ended up binking the tourney so thats good.
  • SaintsTigersSaintsTigers Red Chipper Posts: 238 ✭✭
    derdonker wrote: »
    Pre-flop: Villain described as TAG (rather than NIT), so I give him a range like: TT+, AOo+, ATs+ (5%), which might be too tight. Hero calls with KsJd. Since Villain raised, either call or fold, since raising doesn't isolate more than Villain's raise. Hero call is good.

    Flop: KdTd9h is good for Hero, with top pair, 3rd kicker, no overs. Villain is aggressive, so he predictably c-bets 2/3pot, which doesn't narrow Villain's range at all, and it could be wider if initial range was too tight. Since Hero played this hand, and the Flop came favorably, I believe a raise is warranted, or at least a call with the expectation of raising the Turn.

    Turn: 5c is a blank. Villain bets 2/3pot again. Since Hero entered the hand in the first place, and the Flop was favorable, then called Flop, I suggest a Raise the Turn. (or why call Flop?) If Villain re-raises, Hero is in a tough spot, and should probably fold. If Villain calls, on River Hero may want to fold facing aggression, and bet facing passivity (check).

    You had me until raise the turn
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    CASEY M wrote: »
    I didnt think I could win at showdown.

    Villain is very rarely folding a better hand than yours in this spot, especially given how you played the hand. You didn't defend against draws earlier on, he can't put on you a stronger hand than his. Just check, he's not folding (unless you give him terrible odds to call, i.e. over-bet with for example an all in, that will SOMETIMES work) and you have good showdown value.

  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    derdonker wrote: »
    Villain is aggressive, so he predictably c-bets 2/3pot, which doesn't narrow Villain's range at all, and it could be wider if initial range was too tight.

    The fact that the player is tight and Hero only flats gives him an range-advantage on this flop that's vulnerable to future cards. He's suppose to have a good hand on this board (Top pair + top kicker, Top pair + second kicker, Top pair + gut-shot, same hand as you + flush-draw, two-pairs, Sets). He's suppose to be aggressive because the majority of the times he's going to show up with a better hand than yours unless the board changes, given that Hero only calls the flop, and he's suppose to protect his hand on this dynamic board, not giving him credit due to the fact that he's suppose to do it makes no sense -- he's suppose to do it because the majority of the time he'll have you beat unless you can actually come up with a story that makes sense. Villain is unlikely to be double barreling here without having a proper hand, there are too many hands in Hero's range that beat bluffs that will simply give up after the flop call.

    If you're calling 2-3 streets with this hand against someone who has a stronger range than yours, and is actually representing the piece of the range that beats you, you're not going to last very long in tournaments. You should definitely show people that they can't just push you off everything by making a single barrel but you can't call it down unless V truly gives you a good reason to.

    I don't mind the flop call, especially with the extra gut-shot and the back-door flush draw, but only with the intention of giving up on the turn if V double barrels. You need to be prepared for that, Hero is way too deep to be prepared to call 3 streets with this hand. I'd much rather like to see the other option:

    This flop would make a decent raise spot, however, with the gut-shot and the back-door flush, on top of the top pair. How would a straight or two pair play this flop? It would raise. It's a much better story than trying to take it down on the river after the board bricks and Hero has a decent chance of taking the pot down on the flop (while this is a board that V needs to be for protection, it's a very dangerous board that will often have to given up against aggression due to the board's nature). And note, by only calling the flop your range becomes very much capped and V can't give you much credit later on.
  • derdonkerderdonker San Jose, CA USARed Chipper Posts: 124 ✭✭
    I re-analyzed this hand. Good comments above. My analysis was faulty. Seems like a clear fold on the turn to the raiser.
  • CASEY MCASEY M Red Chipper Posts: 168 ✭✭
    Thanks all
    I agree that calling the turn was pretty terrible and the flop call is ok at best.

    I think against this sort of player it's a poor decision to call pre also

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