The free card play, you'r opinion

Dor ZDor Z Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
Hi guys, her's a case which ill be glad to hear you'r opinions on:
at this session the table consisted of 7 players, 5 intermediete - mediocre level and one agressive fishy.
the table dynamic was pretty loos, with a lot of bluffing and calling.

in the specific hand i was on the cut off, in my left sat the villian which is a reg, with some mediocre experience both in casinos and home cash games. i asses him as a loose-ish player, medium aggresive type. he have a very good natural talnet in 'hand reading' (ranging) which he does quiet automaticlly, wihtout any guidance or theoretical studying (w've talked about it ).

so the blinds are 1/2, effective stack in this hand roughly around 300$ (him) and i cover him.
2 players limped to me and i raise to 12$ with KJo, he calls and all the others fold. (the high bet size is because the table is quiet often calling 3X or 4X.

the flop comes AAQ, and i decide to go on a free card move. so i check and he raises 10$ (a bit more than 1\3 pot) so I re raise to 20$ and he calls. in this poin i put him on either QX or AX (or very unlikely AQ).

the turn is a brick and i check again. (becuse i thought he was intimidated and wanted to see another card for free, and it can represent in a way an AX). so he also checks (probobly i was right and he did feared my potential 3 bet if he bets.)
river is another rag (no flush) and i put 46$ into a 67$ pot, trying to steel the pot with my dead straight draw, while representing a value bet with an AX.
he thinks a bit and call, opens a KQ and so i loose the hand.

i think i played the hand well, and i'm glad i didn't gave up on it on the last round, do you think I should have done something diffrentley? i was debating with myself if i should raise the turn, or go for a check - raise on the river (mybe even a shuv re raise).

I will be more than glad to hear you'r opinion, thnks!
Dor

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Your error here is one of logic:

    You buy the "free" card but give up a line that represents a nutted hand.

    So you have increased the chance of getting a standard sized bet called on the river and thus losing far more, more often, in exchange for realizing your perceived outs cheaply.

    I would add that while the "free card" play is a thing, it's not a particularly important concept in NLHE.
  • Dor ZDor Z Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    thnks. I agree with you'r analyse, which leads me to a conclusion that i should have bet once more (as a bluff) on the turn and then fire a third bullet on the river? of course it depend on my rival reaction, but the conflict is between a bold (expensive) 3 barrel bluff or just forffiting the hand on the riv after no hitting my gutshot?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, would rewind and decide what you'd do with an ace.
  • Nathan SNathan S Red Chipper Posts: 192 ✭✭
    Something interesting here. You check over, which, as PFR'er indicates weakness, and he bets 10. So you put him on either an ace or a queen. If he has the ace, only the straight will beat him, so you're chasing a 10. If he has the queen, you're chasing a 10 or a king.

    I think your c/c on the flop is more important here than you think. In my opinion, your representation becomes a lot more credible if you show strength the entire time.

    Just my 2c.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18
    x/r in general polarize ranges. So if you go for a x/r on this flop often times you will barrel many Turns because you represent nuts(close to it) on Flop or strong drawing hands. Would you check back nuts on Turn specially when V showed interest in the sense that he called you're x/r Flop ?

    Also the min-raise flop is something i would think about. It's hard to deny/buy equity when we lay such a good price for V. Some will argue that you pay the cheapest price for you're bluffs but overall i think we are better served with our strategy as a whole when we establish some kind of leveraging pressure on stacks because we will increase our FE, unless insane dynamics are going on, and get paid the max when we do actually have the best hand.

    About the free card. I would think about it this way. Since strong hands are hard to make in Hold'em, unless we have very strong incentives to check* we should put money into the pot often because we will have the best hand a lot of the time if we actually showdown and that fulfill the first reason to bet in Hold'em. Yes you want to outplay V but you want to make money and checking nuts when there is no real reasons to is not a good idea. If you had Ax(low kicker) and the board comes A 3 8r for example and you know that if you Bet V will fold often but if you check he will be more incentivize to stab at the pot given his playing style then the check is good here because even if he checks back he will rarely improve strongly on Turn and now you can bet to extract value coupling with a little disguise factor.

    *When there is specific dynamics involved, it happens for me when i fight couple times with a V in 3 or 4 orbits and we traded stacks, sometimes i know that the aggression contest is so installed that every time i'll check as the PFR, V will fire, then it make some logical sense to check an Ace for example on this flop.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 611 ✭✭✭
    just CB flop and give up

    erase "free card play" idea from your brain
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    just CB flop and give up

    erase "free card play" idea from your brain
    Your community contribution would be more complete if you would dare to elaborate just a bit for OP about that single sentence.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 611 ✭✭✭
    LOL - I wouldn't dare
  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 994 ✭✭✭
    Yeah the free card play isn't a thing in NL. Save it for limit games where you're on villains left.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    edited August 18
    @Dor Z : @persuadeo has said a lot of good things. Follow his advises.

    Also I'd add two points for you to dig deeper:
    - You min check-raise the flop. The bet sizing is awful: For bluff, Villain has a great price to call (no price pressure for him to fold) ; for value (having QQ/AJ+), you don't extract enough chips from worst hands. You've to size significantly higher.
    - When you're bluffing, which hands will V call (or even raise) with on the flop? Does he really have them too (i.e. did he call with preflop or would he have 3bet, with QQ or AK for ex) ? If V call with a bad A or a Q, do you think you can fire 2 or 3 streets to make him fold? And are you ready yourself to throw a lot of chips (maybe your stack) in the middle to bluff this pot ?
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 237 ✭✭
    Ed Miller gives some good ways to play this and nut flush hands and bluffs... bet flop standard, then micro bet the turn ie. 20 into an 80 pot. Then bomb river. In the example i just gave bet 180-240 into the now 200 pot. Ed talks of using this move as both bluff and value and both working
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    LOL - I wouldn't dare
    That is very kind of you. Those one liner will surely help OP.

    Next time just don't dare post i guess.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    edited August 18
    Travis wrote: »
    Ed Miller gives some good ways to play this and nut flush hands and bluffs... bet flop standard, then micro bet the turn ie. 20 into an 80 pot. Then bomb river. In the example i just gave bet 180-240 into the now 200 pot. Ed talks of using this move as both bluff and value and both working

    As I tend to agree in general - I liked the RCP Pro Video about underbets from @w34z3l - I think it's not a good line here.

    The problem here are:
    - We have very very few draws (only gutshot, no OESD or FD possible), which also aren't sure to be good even if we hit - is T a toxic out here (against AT and a loose TT) ? So we also have some reverse IO.
    - Also because it's AAQ, V can float often, thinking that we don't have the A. Making a bluff expensive (2 streets at least)
    - If we underbet T with a bluff and are raised (which may happens if V has a correct A), we have to fold. But a bigger bet will make Q fold. Also on another lower flop (like 997-3), we could also be raised by an overpair, 2P (A7) or a draw, which makes us in a very difficult position with a marginal draw - maybe V raises only because he think we are weak, so we should be ready to that possibility.
    - If we underbet T with strong value (AK/AJ) and pot river, V gonna fold a lot on river (thinking we have these hands). So we let too much value on the table (too little value bet on Turn, no River call). Here I'd rather make the opposite: standard Turn C-bet (bluff and value) and underbet R for value with good AX or straight (to scratch value from worst AX).

    So on this board, I think it's better to bet-bet-bet or bet-bet-check/fold with bluffs (depending if Villain would fold to 3 bullets or not).

    (But in any case, not bet-check-bet)
  • Dor ZDor Z Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    thnks, you all gave me a lot of good points to think about !