Is this the best play?

Miles HMiles H Red Chipper Posts: 30 ✭✭
Position Name Stack
MP2 19,013 (76.1 bb)
MP3 5,281 (21.1 bb)
CO Hero 14,419 (57.7 bb)
BTN 11,995 (48 bb)
SB 15,902 (63.6 bb)
BB 9,002 (36 bb)
UTG+1 13,844 (55.4 bb)
UTG+2 8,614 (34.5 bb)
MP1 8,855 (35.4 bb)

DETAILS:
User: Anonymous
Played Date: 08/27/2017
Limit: No Limit Hold'em Tournament
Site: Poker Stars
Stakes/Buy-In: $10+$1
Players: 9
No reads


Blinds: 125/250 Ante 25

Preflop: Hero is CO :Jh:Kc
5 folds, Hero raises to 625, 2 folds, BB raises to 1,250, Hero calls 625

The BB makes a min3bet. From my point of view it's a clear call, given the position and the odds. Would you advise anything else? What do these light 3bets normally tell us?

Flop: (2,850) :Kh:2d:5d (2 players)
BB bets 2,750, Hero raises to 13,144 and is all-in, BB calls 4,977 and is all-in

Now, he pots, which leaves him with less than pot behind. I dont think for too long and shove. I just thought there are enough worse hands he would call me down with like K9/KT, flush draws, maybe A4 type hands. I mean, on most turns he probably just would have shoved himself, which I most likely would have called anyway. So, I think this play is superior. Is there something essential I missed?


Thanks for any advice

Comments

  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    Will this guy min 3b will those hands?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭✭
    Before reading this, please remember that I'm more a live cash game player than online tourney player. So some of my comment may be not the best as I'm out of my field :)
    Miles H wrote: »
    Preflop: Hero is CO :Jh:Kc
    5 folds, Hero raises to 625, 2 folds, BB raises to 1,250, Hero calls 625

    The BB makes a min3bet. From my point of view it's a clear call, given the position and the odds. Would you advise anything else? What do these light 3bets normally tell us?
    Miles H wrote: »
    DETAILS:
    [...]
    No reads

    Here there is something you've to focus on : betting patterns and in extenso betting tells.
    I'm not shocked that BB 3-bet - better for him to make you fold pre than playing post flop OOP ad he gets the range advantages (uncap).
    But min 3-bet is something really specific. And I see this move (I'm a live player) only by low stakes fishes with premium hands and good high stakes players with a balanced 3-bet range.

    You can get many info here bases on previous 3-bets from V:
    - No previous 3-bet? He may 3-bet a very narrow range (1,5%? 2,5%). Then I'm no fan calling preflop as we are strongly behind. I'd rather eventually 4-bet for a "once-and-done" bluff or, more often, fold. Calling gives us many reverse IO, especially if a K hits the flop (KJ v. a better K). I don't like playing a "meh" hand against a nitty range.
    - If he previously 3-bet, how frequently ? Frequent 3-bet = looser range / many bluff = ok to call (or even 4bet to punish); rarely 3-bet = stronger range, so continue with extreme cautious. But being BB, even if he tend to 3-bet with a "rarely" frequency, maybe he 3-bet light to scoop the pot pre; so continuing is not bad, but you really need now a postflop plan.
    - When he 3-bet before, for how much? Min 3-bet is uncommon. Try to remember if he used such odds sizing before. If he always 3-bet 3X-4X and suddenly min 3-bet, giving us a sick price to call, it smells more like a top premium hand which wants to get value without scaring you away.
    Note: this has been played online, maybe V just push the "raise" button without changing the sizing. So maybe the size means little? Nonetheless, the 3-bet sizing pattern is important to follow (esp. if he used different 3-bet sizing before - aka prone to change the sizing and not just push the "raise" button).
    - Finally, when we call, we create a less than 2 SPR pot. Based on previous info, do we really want to commit our stack here? Meh, I don't think KJo perform well enough for that, esp. here.

    All together, without info, I think I would fold thinking I face QQ+/AK - or even narrower range - in a low SPR pot. I'd need further info about him before flatting, even if we have position.
    I but could 4-bet here just to test him - a once and done bluff.

    Miles H wrote: »
    Flop: (2,850) :Kh:2d:5d (2 players)
    BB bets 2,750, Hero raises to 13,144 and is all-in, BB calls 4,977 and is all-in

    Now, he pots, which leaves him with less than pot behind. I don't think for too long and shove. I just thought there are enough worse hands he would call me down with like K9/KT, flush draws, maybe A4 type hands. I mean, on most turns he probably just would have shoved himself, which I most likely would have called anyway. So, I think this play is superior. Is there something essential I missed?

    Argl! Yes, there is something essential you missed!

    - Preflop he min 3-bet. What is the range he could 3-bet here - and for this exact amount?
    - In extenso, with what range does he continue on the flop?
    - Bi repeatita, with what range does he continue for a pot bet ?

    I think your postflop play was a blunder (at least how you dealt with it). You saw you hit your K and want to put all your chips in the middle. Not thinking that this board smash his 3-bet range. He would miss with some 1.5 pairs like QQ or some bluffs (A4s, etc.), even if he turns them into a bluff C-bet, would he sizes that big ?

    And more important: now we knows Villain is able to custom his bet sizing and not only push "raise" as his bet is 2750 in a 2850 pot (instead of 1/2 pot). Which implies that his preflop 3-bet sizing was deliberated - putting him on a monster premium range looking for a call.
    Plus he bets way over the leverage point. He wants to play for stacks on a dry-ish board.

    I think here by his bet sizing and preflop play, V is screaming KK+/AK - I would guess AK or AA without any :DIAMOND: , with a big sizing to scare FD away or makes them badly call.
    Hence I see no point point flatting and even less raising. I would fold 100% of the time.
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    Miles H wrote: »
    Hero raises to 625, 2 folds, BB raises to 1,250, Hero calls 625

    The BB makes a min3bet. From my point of view it's a clear call, given the position and the odds. Would you advise anything else? What do these light 3bets normally tell us?

    Flop: (2,850) :Kh:2d:5d (2 players)
    BB bets 2,750, Hero raises to 13,144 and is all-in, BB calls 4,977 and is all-in

    Now, he pots, which leaves him with less than pot behind. I dont think for too long and shove. I just thought there are enough worse hands he would call me down with like K9/KT, flush draws, maybe A4 type hands.

    You're asking the right questions. Let's dig in.

    Pre-flop: The big blind knows you're going to call his min-raise and he's going to be playing against you out-of-position on the flop. People generally don't commit you into pots with such small raises, especially once they'll have a positional disadvantage.

    The most common reason for players to do this is because they have a big edge due to their hole cards. A light (weak) 3bet in this spot is normally going to be larger in order to actually let you consider folding. Sometimes they'll think they have a skill edge that will allow them to win the pot post-flop, but if they truly are skilled then they're not auto-committing you to the pot with a worse hands than yours.

    Which hands is he doing this with? His range probably consists of high pocket pairs. QQ, KK, AA. Sometimes JJ, AK, AQs, AJs, KQs but those would probably go for a bit larger size to punish your wide range most of the time, or simply flat. It's very likely that this player actually wants you to raise his min-raise. He doesn't want you to fold.

    Flop: Most players who pot a flop like this have missed and truly want you to fold, but think about the hands that he can have. This player can easily be very scared of the flush-draw available and he wants to get it in by the turn, using that argument his bet makes perfect sense, he wants to get it all in by the turn. I'm not saying that potting here is the optimal strategy, but some players will do it and just the reason that you're willing to commit your entire stack on top pair, weak kicker, on a draw heavy board, is a reason enough for other players to do this, they know you'll call and win your stack, if they've seen you take a similar line before. Anyone doing this without a proper hand is generally trying to get busted. How often is he doing it with a hand that you beat?

    Which hands do you beat that are doing this, given our pre-flop assumptions? (You have to assign a range of hands given his pre-flop actions, hands can't magically appear in the range after the flop, you can only narrow a range down). Had villain be doing this a lot then you could easily widen his range but without know anything more that what you've described, there are not many hands that we beat.

    You beat QQ and you lose to AA,KK. Had villain somehow be playing AK or KQ that beats you too. Had villain somehow be playing AQs or AJs he has an overcard and possibly a flush-draw that he's betting aggressively. When villain bets this flop he's committed, you have close to 0% fold equity, how many hands do you truly beat that are committing to this flop? He can also have the flush-draw himself, if he's the type of player who min-raises his suited broad-way cards OOP. Do you truly believe that He's min raising hands like KT, K9, A4s, from the big-blind, knowing that he'll be OOP and committing you into the flop with a min-raise? I don't think so. For that reason these hands can't magically appear in his range now.

    You've committed 1,250 chips into this pot, I don't see a reason to shove 7727 when there are so few hands we beat. You're most of the times behind or villain will have very good equity against you.

    The range I'm giving villain here is tight, it should be your default thinking on min-raises from early positions. You can expand this range if villain gives you a good reason to, but don't widen it up as a default.

    I don't think you should have shoved, and to be honest, I think you can find better spots to call given the dynamics of this hand. You're playing a tournament, your chips are so much worth than those chips you're trying to achieve and most of the time you won't be achieving them in this spot.

    You don't have to agree with everything I say, that's not what matters. What matters is that you actually assign a range to villain that makes sense and this range can't widen up as the hand goes on. Which hands would you min-raise with in the BB? I hope this helps somewhat.
  • Miles HMiles H Red Chipper Posts: 30 ✭✭
    Thank you Jonas S. and Red, really interesting thoughts here. Is it just long experience or is there something else you can recommend me doing?

    He, indeed had AA. It's just so hard to put an unknown on such a premium range, where Toppair is never good on a dry board.. My main problem was the min3bet. I've seldom been in a spot like this and couldnt put a specific range on him. I figured, he must be a fish, who doesnt know how to raise properly. That's why K9/KT/Ax made sense to me. And to be honest, people in these limits play all kind of strange shit. It would not have suprised me if he had 33. But I guess, there is a category I ignored, which is players, who want to induce with premium hands, which makes them at least exploitable in the future. Im just so used to weak players that it became my default in situations like these to assume they probably have a worse value range than I. I guess I oughta put more logic behind every players decisions and apply reasonable ranges for them, even if that means to fold Toppair on a dry board.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭✭
    Miles H wrote: »
    Thank you Jonas S. and Red, really interesting thoughts here. Is it just long experience or is there something else you can recommend me doing?
    Study more 3-bet and 3-bet ranges (3-betting yourself, how to react v. 3-bet / what's their range)

    And pay more attention to what they do. Bet sizing tells will give you a ton of info about their hands.
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    You should indeed avoid getting broke with one pair when the stack-to-pot ratio is so high and villain's story makes perfect sense. You've got decent showdown value and there's always a chance that you'll be able to win the pot when scare cards come off so for a smaller bet a call might be justified in some instances. There's no need to shove just to make the decision process easier. You're not fighting for that many chips. Sweat a little and make better decisions. In this case it's a pretty easy fold, you need to think about the odds you're being given. His bet is too big to call. I'd fold here, as much as it sucks to fold a top pair.

    In order to make the call or shove profitable you need to beat a certain percentage of villain's range. Yes, he can show up with crap, but there's not enough crap in his range to justify going forward.

    Basically list all the possible hands (using flopzilla, for example, there are plenty of tutorials out there) that villain can be doing a certain move with, and see how many hands villain has on the flop that would bet this flop vs those hands that wouldn't. Don't play a guessing game.

    Continue posting, read other posts, watch the pro videos and take notes, read books, listen to podcasts (such as the red chip poker podcast) and you'll quickly get a grasp of what you're missing.

    The fundamental thing that'll make you take the biggest leap is to stop thinking about your cards for a moment and truly list the possible hands villain can have in a given spot given how he has played. Don't shove if you're confused, you're setting yourself up for failure.

    What you need to focus on is hand reading, SplitSuit and Greco have a podcast on it here on red chip poker: https://redchippoker.com/studying-hand-reading/

    I recommend listening to all the podcasts, they're short and get to the point. They're a great starting point to make you realize which areas of studies the pros think you should be improving your game.

    This doesn't just come in one day. Many of us are able to break this down in text and by using tools but doing it while playing takes an even longer time and it's just a matter of practice.

    Keep posting more hands, make your own analysis and then see what others have to say. It's a win win for both parties, you learn by getting feedback and the other users get new scenarios to think about, some of which they'd perhaps never faced before.
  • eugeniusjreugeniusjr Red Chipper Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    What is the SPR?
  • Lisandro LLisandro L Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    eugeniusjr wrote: »
    What is the SPR?

    Yep, anyone minds telling us? I have no idea either
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭✭
    Come on guys, aren't you able to make a simple google/yahoo/bing(?) search ? Any search with the keywords "SPR" and "Red chip poker" gives you many results
    https://www.google.hu/search?q=SPR+redchippoker&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=yX7TWf3gOtOB4gTbqr3QCg&gws_rd=cr

    And it was also the theme of one of the last podcast (August) https://redchippoker.com/spr-stack-to-pot-ratio-podcast/
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Come on guys, aren't you able to make a simple google/yahoo/bing(?) search ? Any search with the keywords "SPR" and "Red chip poker" gives you many results
    https://www.google.hu/search?q=SPR+redchippoker&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=yX7TWf3gOtOB4gTbqr3QCg&gws_rd=cr

    And it was also the theme of one of the last podcast (August) https://redchippoker.com/spr-stack-to-pot-ratio-podcast/

    what is google/yahoo/bing? ...
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭

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