What if I don't have 10 minutes to analyze my hand?

MattPMattP Red Chipper Posts: 100 ✭✭
edited August 2017 in Live Workbook (Vol 1)
Stepping back a bit and thinking about this course overall, I'm just wondering how others are applying this workbook.

I'm just past hand 25 and still working through it... and while I think this is interesting, useful work, I'm struggling to apply this in real time at the tables.

Maybe the idea here is to hammer home the idea of how to think about ranges and combos and help us get a better overall sense of how ranges narrow during a hand, but honestly, in the heat of the moment in the live hand, I'm rarely able to slow down and walk through this as methodically as I do in these exercises.

Seems to me I run into two problems:

1. Assigning a reliable range to an opponent. As I've seen in these discussions on hand exercises, there are wild differences between thinking, studying poker players on what a "LAG" or "Solid TAG" would include in a preflop range. These exercises are interesting, but they start with a core assumption — my guess about what a player might have in his/her range — that seems very hard to rely on. If six of us can't agree what an imaginary "TAG" villain might start with in his range, how much can we trust the conclusions we draw from narrowing down that range during a live hand?

2. Cranking the numbers without a tool. I've gotten pretty good at assessing odds, breakeven percentages, equity, etc relatively quickly... But that's a lot easier than being able to assess, on the fly, under pressure, if my JJ is good vs. my guessed range of a villain, without the benefit of Flopzilla or some similar tool. Does this just become more intuitive over time for some of you?

Curious to hear others takes on this... Are others finding this easier to apply at the tables? Or do I just have a slow learning curve?

Comments

  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,876 -
    1.) You assign a range, you are right for that range away from the table. That range becomes a baseline for other ranges seen in the wild.

    Having the baseline that "7 time 7 is 50" (shut up math nits, I am on a roll here) lets you say well "8 times 8 has to be bigger than that, lets add eight again to make it 7 times 8 and then one more for 8 times 8 sounds right. So 50 + 8 + 8 is 65ish

    If you are ever in a situation where your mental calculations say it is close, it really probably does not matter. The EV probably runs really close in that spot. Call or fold, raise or call, these close spot probably don't mean much and there are a ton of them.

    The big problems are situations where the EV of two lines differ massively and the wrong one is taken.

    2.) You really get better at this. If I am taking a break and assigning a range with a student on poker cruncher for a given board before hitting calculate on the iPhone we both take a guess. I am almost always within +-5% just from pure muscle memory. Once we have gotten equities for one hand versus the given range, we try a few others. This helps to get the relative equities of different hands versus a given range.

    Do this stuff over and over and just like we "just know" our multiplication tables, you will "just know" your equities.

    In the land of the blind, one eyed man is king. Plus or minus 10% makes you a king at most tables.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • Nemanja SNemanja S Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    MattP wrote: »
    Stepping back a bit and thinking about this course overall, I'm just wondering how others are applying this workbook.

    I'm just past hand 25 and still working through it... and while I think this is interesting, useful work, I'm struggling to apply this in real time at the tables.

    Maybe the idea here is to hammer home the idea of how to think about ranges and combos and help us get a better overall sense of how ranges narrow during a hand, but honestly, in the heat of the moment in the live hand, I'm rarely able to slow down and walk through this as methodically as I do in these exercises.

    Seems to me I run into two problems:

    1. Assigning a reliable range to an opponent. As I've seen in these discussions on hand exercises, there are wild differences between thinking, studying poker players on what a "LAG" or "Solid TAG" would include in a preflop range. These exercises are interesting, but they start with a core assumption — my guess about what a player might have in his/her range — that seems very hard to rely on. If six of us can't agree what an imaginary "TAG" villain might start with in his range, how much can we trust the conclusions we draw from narrowing down that range during a live hand?

    2. Cranking the numbers without a tool. I've gotten pretty good at assessing odds, breakeven percentages, equity, etc relatively quickly... But that's a lot easier than being able to assess, on the fly, under pressure, if my JJ is good vs. my guessed range of a villain, without the benefit of Flopzilla or some similar tool. Does this just become more intuitive over time for some of you?

    Curious to hear others takes on this... Are others finding this easier to apply at the tables? Or do I just have a slow learning curve?

    This is something I am working on at the moment. I have a few minor setbacks, but am still trying to keep up with my studies. I am using Mac in US where we have limited amount of decent online games. I have no time to play live games so I am stuck with online games. BO is my personal choice, it is the one that plays great on Mac, HUD of my choice is iHoldemIndicator, for PT4 and HoldemManager do not work on this site. I even tried using the card catcher software to at lease store hands and then import them to PT4, with no luck, though.

    But, I am still trying to deal with what I have and learn as much as I can. I installed few apps on my iPhone which help me in tight spots. PokerCruncher - seems to be the Flopzilla for iPhones, would not know, for I haven't used it, TakeEV seems to be a PokerStove replacement, also an iPhone app, and since I am playing SnGs mostly, I user Push and Fold helper as a ICMizer... quick to use tools.

    I am yet to start doing after hours hand analysis... I have been tracking some of my play, I just have to get back to it - but, every single coach or pro player will tell you that studying this will develop and instinct or a reflex so you can access that knowledge within seconds at the live or online table... study, study, study!!!
  • keith ckeith c Red Chipper Posts: 142 ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    You really get better at this. If I am taking a break and assigning a range with a student on poker cruncher for a given board before hitting calculate on the iPhone we both take a guess. I am almost always within +-5% just from pure muscle memory. Once we have gotten equities for one hand versus the given range, we try a few others. This helps to get the relative equities of different hands versus a given range.

    Do this stuff over and over and just like we "just know" our multiplication tables, you will "just know" your equities.

    In the land of the blind, one eyed man is king. Plus or minus 10% makes you a king at most tables.

    I can't agree with this more. It's amazing how sometimes I do something and when I think about it I'm like, how did I 'know' But it is worth it.

    And +- 10% will make heads roll at the table.
    ----
    "Why is the sky blue ? How does positraction work ?"
    "it just does."
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    @Doug Hull said it really well. Intuition is built through tons of reps - it gets quicker even if it starts out pretty damn sluggish.
    📑 Grab my custom poker spreadsheet pack right now.
    📘 Start the Preflop & Math Poker Workbook today.

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