It was one of those nights

keith ckeith c Red Chipper Posts: 142 ✭✭
edited August 2017 in Off Topic Chat
I'll keep it short. buyin 300, 1/2 and a few hands in I look at KK, in the 9 seat hijack I raise, 10 seat re-raises, folds to me I shove, he snap calls, preflop asks "You have a pair" I say yes, flop K7Q he flips AQ, I flip KK, he starts cutting out chips, Turn A, river A... 2ljv2dbwi38k.gif

and then later I raise to 15 (after rebuying for 300) and get one caller. Holding AJsuited
Flop AsJs2c I bet he raises I put him all in , he calls. Flips 22. Turn 10h River 6d

iwdzhickjoap.gif

I go home...


Comments

  • MattPMattP Red Chipper Posts: 100 ✭✭
    That why, as we used to say at my home game:

    "Poker's a funny game. Just not a "ha-ha" funny game."


    Variance sucks.
  • Nemanja SNemanja S Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    Variance is a bitch!

    Walk away with a smile and come back to make exactly the same moves next many times with positive outcome.
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    People are trying to give you money. Enjoy it. Imagine if you'd be getting enormous folds against your big hands, THAT would suck.
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    Poker, the game we hate to love
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    keith c wrote: »
    300, 1/2
    I look at KK, in the 9 seat hijack I raise,
    10 seat re-raises, folds to me
    I shove


    later I raise to 15 (after rebuying for 300) and get one caller.
    I bet
    he raises
    I put him all in

    hmmmm....
    was it really "one of those nights?"
    or
    are you just "one of those players?"

    you know you have other options other than just shoving, right?
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    yy4043ph2jkt.jpeg

    sorry... my bad.
    I thought this was a forum for a training site on how to play poker better....

    you're right @keith c
    [great big sigh...]
    Let's not focus at how we got 100BB in on two separate occassions (one time with the worse of it) and instead let's blame it on variance.

    yeah, that should make everything okay!

    so ummm.... I agree with what the other guys said:
    variance is cruel, mean and unpredictable.

    you played your hand perfectly and still lost.
    :-(
    (sad face)

  • Zero CoolZero Cool Red Chipper Posts: 272 ✭✭✭
    keith c wrote: »
    I go home...

    That's your biggest -EV play if they're really calling off 150BB pre with AQ.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭
    Couple of tough hands--absolute nightmare runout on that first hand.

    I know you didn't post many details on that hands, but it seems like you may be getting a little too excited to get your stack into the pot. Maybe this is a result of your game--where AQo is calling a shove for 150bb's--and I can't say that I blame you or that it's a necessarily a mistake to just shove. Hell, if they'll call, put the chips in! I just wonder if you're giving away too much information, and if you are, I guess the next question is whether or not your opponent's even notice.
    Zero Cool wrote: »
    keith c wrote: »
    I go home...

    That's your biggest -EV play if they're really calling off 150BB pre with AQ.

    True that! Although, I would need a short break too.
  • keith ckeith c Red Chipper Posts: 142 ✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    yy4043ph2jkt.jpeg

    sorry... my bad.
    I thought this was a forum for a training site on how to play poker better....

    you're right @keith c
    [great big sigh...]
    Let's not focus at how we got 100BB in on two separate occassions (one time with the worse of it) and instead let's blame it on variance.

    yeah, that should make everything okay!

    I have been watching this guy call all in preflop with A10+

    preflop on this I'm 77%. So yeah I would say I got it in good. Post flop, I'm crazy good.
    Runner runner. Well that's variance. I think I got my money in good and I've no complaint about the shove.

    The AJ hand, well he was a shorter stack than me and my preflop raise and him out of position, I did not range him on 22 since he was showing about 7% at this point.

    I do not shove willy nilly, but I am also not going to be afraid to when I'm ahead. I appreciate the feedback, not sure what 'one of those players' means but when I'm ahead I'll put my opponent to task (not always shoving) Sometimes you hit a cooler. Sometimes runner runner hits and it's just variance. But if I think playing for stacks makes sense I'm playing for stacks.

    I agree my -EV play was going home against these players.

  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    keith c wrote: »
    I think I got my money in good and I've no complaint about the shove.

    what I think you're missing here is the "playing poker" part
    from your thought-process - you sound like one of Limon's OMCs who's got a "thru-ticket" to instant profits. since you're never folding, why not shove?

    in a tourney - a good case can be made for shoving.

    but in a cash game - where you're 100% certain that you have NO fold equity - why shove? (and IF you did have FE, why shove?) why not call and play poker?

    when you shove - you're giving your opponent the opportunity to FULLY realize his hand's equity. ( so if he's got 20%... he's got a 1 in 5 chance to win... guaranteed)
    But if you called and played poker - his equity is severely diminished - if he's got nothing on the flop, he's probably folding and you're denying him his share of the pot.

    what does that mean?
    it means when you shove, you're taking ALL the skill out of the game.
    you're relying on luck to determine the outcome of the hand.
    it means you're not using this opportunity to encourage V to make more mistakes
    it means you're guaranteeing that he'll see all 5 cards.
    why would you ever want to do that when you're 150bb deep?

    think about this:
    what's your edge?
    what's your advantage?
    is it finding strong premium hands and shoving?
    (sorry but any monkey can do that)

    or is it playing smart poker:
    betting when you're ahead and folding when you're behind?
    and sometimes making a bluff when the opportunity presents itself?

    why would you want to give you opponent the best chance at winning the hand?

    there's no skill in that.

    in fact, there's no need to study the game, subscribe to a training site or post hands.
    just wait for premium hands and bet, raise, shove til all the chips are in the middle.
    voila! you're a successful poker player.

    no need to understand table dynamics.
    no need to work on playing the player or table image
    no need to figure out proper bet sizing.
    no need to calculate pot odds or RIOs.

    it's often said that poker provides players with 3 advantages:
    hand strength, position & skill
    when you shove - you take 2 of the 3 advantages away
    why would you ever want to do that?
    suddently, you're playing "bingo" and then, you find yourself yelling, "one time, dealer. one time!"

    now, this is not to say the outcome would have been different.
    the results will be what they will be.

    but me thinks you could have done a better job at playing smarter poker
    and since you're posting on RCP - I thought at least one person should stand up and point this out

    winning poker is not just about building a pot when you're likely to be ahead,
    it's also knowing when to fold and save chips when you're behind.
    inviting 150bb swings into your game just because you pick up a strong starting hand is a great way to kill your win rate.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    The first hand is definitely a cooler.

    The second hand, though, I think could merit discussion. Yes, you were likely ahead on the flop. But, I'd love to see how the hand played out (raises, stack sizes, etc.). It could very well be that getting it all in was the undoubtedly the smartest play -- and, in fact, the only play. Stack sizes, however, might dictate other possible courses.

    As for going home, I have no problem with you leaving. Let's be honest: we all like to think of ourselves as impervious to the results of the previous hand. After two harsh beats like this, though, there's a good chance that many of us would have been chasing our money. No need to pose as an emotional hero; if you think that you might be chasing, then go home -- there will be many a good table another time.
  • keith ckeith c Red Chipper Posts: 142 ✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    keith c wrote: »
    I think I got my money in good and I've no complaint about the shove.

    what I think you're missing here is the "playing poker" part
    from your thought-process - you sound like one of Limon's OMCs who's got a "thru-ticket" to instant profits. since you're never folding, why not shove?

    no need to understand table dynamics.
    no need to work on playing the player or table image
    no need to figure out proper bet sizing.
    no need to calculate pot odds or RIOs.

    it's often said that poker provides players with 3 advantages:
    hand strength, position & skill
    when you shove - you take 2 of the 3 advantages away
    why would you ever want to do that?
    suddently, you're playing "bingo" and then, you find yourself yelling, "one time, dealer. one time!"

    but me thinks you could have done a better job at playing smarter poker
    and since you're posting on RCP - I thought at least one person should stand up and point this out

    winning poker is not just about building a pot when you're likely to be ahead,
    it's also knowing when to fold and save chips when you're behind.
    inviting 150bb swings into your game just because you pick up a strong starting hand is a great way to kill your win rate.

    And I took all these into account. This hand the shove WAS the play. This guy was showing unbridled aggression with A10+ s or ns. I was in good position, and understanding the dynamics of this player and the table, this was the right time, You assume I just shoved and hoped for the best, I played his aggression right back at him with a VERY strong position and hand. In fact if I had flatted his raise, the flop was going to get it in anyway. And if it did the turn would have sealed the deal. I didn't just ship it because I was holding KK, this was to push back on the aggression with great cards in position. And my read was right, I was WAY ahead. The run out sucked for me.

    I never play bingo at the table and this time I wasn't either. There was more behind this shove then you think. I didn't just shove because I had KK.

  • keith ckeith c Red Chipper Posts: 142 ✭✭
    The first hand is definitely a cooler.

    The second hand, though, I think could merit discussion. Yes, you were likely ahead on the flop. But, I'd love to see how the hand played out (raises, stack sizes, etc.). It could very well be that getting it all in was the undoubtedly the smartest play -- and, in fact, the only play. Stack sizes, however, might dictate other possible courses.

    As for going home, I have no problem with you leaving. Let's be honest: we all like to think of ourselves as impervious to the results of the previous hand. After two harsh beats like this, though, there's a good chance that many of us would have been chasing our money. No need to pose as an emotional hero; if you think that you might be chasing, then go home -- there will be many a good table another time.

    The AJ, I was sitting with 300 and he had about 75, so while I didn't get stacked it did hurt. I raised to 15 preflop on the BB with 2 callers, this guy and the SB. This guy called from MP1 and the SB folded.

    After the flop I check, he bets, then I decide to lean on his stack, but he had a set. *shrug* I could have gotten away maybe, who knows.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    keith c wrote: »
    I'll keep it short. buyin 300, 1/2 and a few hands in I look at KK, in the 9 seat hijack I raise, 10 seat re-raises, folds to me I shove, he snap calls...
    keith c wrote: »
    And I took all these into account. This hand the shove WAS the play. This guy was showing unbridled aggression with A10+ s or ns. I was in good position...

    so help me to understand:
    ½ game - eff stacks $300 (150bb)

    folded to Hero in HJ - he raises 5bb with KK
    CO raises to... what?, 15bb with ATs
    pot now 20bbs... 10bb for Hero to call
    Hero shoves for 145bbs?
    Is that how it went?

    we shoved 145bb to win 20bb?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    keith c wrote: »
    kagey wrote: »
    keith c wrote: »
    I think I got my money in good and I've no complaint about the shove.

    what I think you're missing here is the "playing poker" part
    from your thought-process - you sound like one of Limon's OMCs who's got a "thru-ticket" to instant profits. since you're never folding, why not shove?

    no need to understand table dynamics.
    no need to work on playing the player or table image
    no need to figure out proper bet sizing.
    no need to calculate pot odds or RIOs.

    it's often said that poker provides players with 3 advantages:
    hand strength, position & skill
    when you shove - you take 2 of the 3 advantages away
    why would you ever want to do that?
    suddently, you're playing "bingo" and then, you find yourself yelling, "one time, dealer. one time!"

    but me thinks you could have done a better job at playing smarter poker
    and since you're posting on RCP - I thought at least one person should stand up and point this out

    winning poker is not just about building a pot when you're likely to be ahead,
    it's also knowing when to fold and save chips when you're behind.
    inviting 150bb swings into your game just because you pick up a strong starting hand is a great way to kill your win rate.

    And I took all these into account. This hand the shove WAS the play. This guy was showing unbridled aggression with A10+ s or ns. I was in good position, and understanding the dynamics of this player and the table, this was the right time, You assume I just shoved and hoped for the best, I played his aggression right back at him with a VERY strong position and hand. In fact if I had flatted his raise, the flop was going to get it in anyway. And if it did the turn would have sealed the deal. I didn't just ship it because I was holding KK, this was to push back on the aggression with great cards in position. And my read was right, I was WAY ahead. The run out sucked for me.

    I never play bingo at the table and this time I wasn't either. There was more behind this shove then you think. I didn't just shove because I had KK.

    I get 100% where you're coming from. 100%. But, my early 2017 months proved -- at a high cost to me -- just how powerful and prescient @kagey's words are.

    It might the case that shoving in both these circumstances was the right play. It might be!! My hunch, though (and I could be wrong) is that you wouldn't be venting (which is okay to do!!) if that were the case. I wonder if there is a little something nagging...

    For me, one of the most difficult to internalize lessons in poker was NOT getting all my money in just because I was ahead. It is counter-intuitive in so, so, SO many ways. But, it is among the most powerful lessons that I have learned.

    Whether your post was in truth just a vent (and maybe we took it too far, if that's the case!) or whether there was, indeed, something nagging at you, I'd still recommend re-reading and spending time on @kagey's posts. Even if they don't actually apply to these two specific hands, the wisdom in them will undoubtedly apply many times over throughout your -- and my!! -- poker life.
  • keith ckeith c Red Chipper Posts: 142 ✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    keith c wrote: »
    And I took all these into account. This hand the shove WAS the play. This guy was showing unbridled aggression with A10+ s or ns. I was in good position...

    so help me to understand:
    ½ game - eff stacks $300 (150bb)

    folded to Hero in HJ - he raises 5bb with KK
    CO raises to... what?, 15bb with ATs
    pot now 20bbs... 10bb for Hero to call
    Hero shoves for 145bbs?
    Is that how it went?

    we shoved 145bb to win 20bb?

    Ok, from my notes:

    I'm in HJ, 3 limps to me. I raise to 25, button makes it 75, folds to me. I put him on 7% hand range and his raise tells me JJ+ or AJ+ s/ns. I've been watching his play for a while. Hyper aggressive, even with non made hands. So it comes to me I know I'm good against all but AA or KK. So I decide to ship it and put him to task. And I was right in my read. Yeah I may have bet 225 to win 113, but it also put pressure on this guy I knew was playing aggressive. He called.

    But lets take another line. I flat. 153 in the pot. Flop K7Q rainbow.

    I bet 70, (lets say he flats, which he would surely raise me)

    Turn A. Where do you think I go from here ? all-in. Then he gets an A on the river and beats me. Better line ?

    I do appreciate your sentiment and your reasoning, but you weren't there, and didn't have the reads on this player/table. My table image at this point is TAGish.

    I'll leave you with this:

    Antonio Esfandiari: "I haven't folded KK in like 5 years, those days are long gone. If you got it, you got it."
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    but in a cash game - where you're 100% certain that you have NO fold equity - why shove? (and IF you did have FE, why shove?) why not call and play poker?

    when you shove - you're giving your opponent the opportunity to FULLY realize his hand's equity. ( so if he's got 20%... he's got a 1 in 5 chance to win... guaranteed)
    But if you called and played poker - his equity is severely diminished - if he's got nothing on the flop, he's probably folding and you're denying him his share of the pot.
    What are your thoughts on this: if we can get V to put their entire stack into the pot as a 70% underdog, why bother trying to play poker and deny them their equity? Here's my thinking (could be flawed, but that's why I post): we get V's entire stack of $300 into the pot as a 70% favorite = +$210. If we go a different way, we may get V to put in some portion of their stack and fold. Do we ever get V to put in $210 of their stack and then fold? Based on this thinking, we're probably much better letting V realize their full equity as when they do, we're playing a much larger pot. Or perhaps where I'm flawed is only considering a single hand; what if V puts in portions of their stack over several hands where we get them to fold. This could easily overcome the $210.


  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    keith c wrote: »
    I'm in HJ, 3 limps to me. I raise to 25, button makes it 75, folds to me. I put him on 7% hand range and his raise tells me JJ+ or AJ+ s/ns...

    Turn A. Where do you think I go from here ? all-in. Then he gets an A on the river and beats me. Better line ?

    Here's where I see the confusion: you are conflating V's range with is actual holding. The question is not what happens post flop against V's HAND of AQ but rather what happens post flop against V's RANGE -- which you identified at the beginning.

    When you shoved pre-flop and were called, I'm not sure that your read was right. Your read was that V had JJ+ or AJ+. Remember: AA, KK, AK, AQ, AJ -- they're all in that range... Your "read" wasn't correct; you just happened to be up against one of the hands in a range against which you are usually ahead.

    One more point: When you're all-in pre-flop, the order of the cards that come out are irrelevant. Say that the flop was AAQ -- you wouldn't really care that K came later. It's only a "bad" beat since the K came out in the flop, and the A & Q made up the turn and the river. Hence the consideration of NOT shoving pre-flop and playing poker...

    Again, it might be a +EV play that you shoved here given your read of V and his propensity to call off light. The suggestion to consider is that it might not be the optimal play.
  • keith ckeith c Red Chipper Posts: 142 ✭✭
    Here's where I see the confusion: you are conflating V's range with is actual holding. The question is not what happens post flop against V's HAND of AQ but rather what happens post flop against V's RANGE -- which you identified at the beginning.

    When you shoved pre-flop and were called, I'm not sure that your read was right. Your read was that V had JJ+ or AJ+. Remember: AA, KK, AK, AQ, AJ -- they're all in that range... Your "read" wasn't correct; you just happened to be up against one of the hands in a range against which you are usually ahead.

    One more point: When you're all-in pre-flop, the order of the cards that come out are irrelevant. Say that the flop was AAQ -- you wouldn't really care that K came later. It's only a "bad" beat since the K came out in the flop, and the A & Q made up the turn and the river. Hence the consideration of NOT shoving pre-flop and playing poker...

    Again, it might be a +EV play that you shoved here given your read of V and his propensity to call off light. The suggestion to consider is that it might not be the optimal play.

    I understand, and I do not disagree knowing how the run out is, certain can make other courses of action. Had I flatted and an A hit on the flop, I could have gotten away from it perhaps. ESP with an AAQ flop. :) I think at the time it was the right play, I do know there are other ways to play it, just wanting to put out there I wasn't bingo playing this hand, there were reasons at the time I did what I did. Were there other ways to play yeah, but only preflop. Post flop I still see I'm playing for stacks.

    If I flatted his 3bet, I would have bet post flop and he would have called/raised. Then on the turn it would have been, bet-raise-all in-call.

  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    keith c wrote: »
    Here's where I see the confusion: you are conflating V's range with is actual holding. The question is not what happens post flop against V's HAND of AQ but rather what happens post flop against V's RANGE -- which you identified at the beginning.

    When you shoved pre-flop and were called, I'm not sure that your read was right. Your read was that V had JJ+ or AJ+. Remember: AA, KK, AK, AQ, AJ -- they're all in that range... Your "read" wasn't correct; you just happened to be up against one of the hands in a range against which you are usually ahead.

    One more point: When you're all-in pre-flop, the order of the cards that come out are irrelevant. Say that the flop was AAQ -- you wouldn't really care that K came later. It's only a "bad" beat since the K came out in the flop, and the A & Q made up the turn and the river. Hence the consideration of NOT shoving pre-flop and playing poker...

    Again, it might be a +EV play that you shoved here given your read of V and his propensity to call off light. The suggestion to consider is that it might not be the optimal play.

    I understand, and I do not disagree knowing how the run out is, certain can make other courses of action. Had I flatted and an A hit on the flop, I could have gotten away from it perhaps. ESP with an AAQ flop. :) I think at the time it was the right play, I do know there are other ways to play it, just wanting to put out there I wasn't bingo playing this hand, there were reasons at the time I did what I did. Were there other ways to play yeah, but only preflop. Post flop I still see I'm playing for stacks.

    If I flatted his 3bet, I would have bet post flop and he would have called/raised. Then on the turn it would have been, bet-raise-all in-call.

    Absolutely! Barring a flat and, say, an AAQ flop, it's getting all-in no matter what. And the fact that you had KK and lost to a lesser hand -- especially after flopping a K! -- certainly sucks.

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