Was this a cooler or was I supposed to fold here?

Yanming ZYanming Z Red Chipper Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
1/2 no limit game eff $300,

I open from UTG with :Qs :Qd , V calls from MP, BB calls, 3 way to the flop with $30 in pot.

Flop is :Ks :Kd :Qc , BB checks I bet $15, V calls, BB folds, Pot $60.

Turn is :8s , I bet $35, V raised to $ 85, I decided to call here because the V had just a pot size bet left, and I wanted him to shove the river.

River is a card I didn't want see, :Kc , I checked, V bets $70, and I call, sure enough he showed :Ac :Kh .

I put the V on Kx on the turn, when the last K fell I was pretty sure he made the nuts. What threw me off was his bet sizing, he had less than a pot size bet left on the river, why did he bet $70 and leave about $100 behind? This got me thinking that he maybe buying the pot with stuff like JT, or thin value betting with pocket 8s or AQ.

So should I consider this hand a cooler? Or did I make a bad call on the river?


  • MonadMonad Red Chipper Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    Let me think....


    Played it fine.

    As an aside it might be better to min raise back on the turn to guarantee you get to put the last bet in on the river, or plan on just donk-shoving river yourself on any card but a K.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,499 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    Getting broke here is normal. But I'm not a fan of your turn call...
    Yanming Z wrote: »

    Turn is :8s , I bet $35, V raised to $ 85, I decided to call here because the V had just a pot size bet left, and I wanted him to shove the river.

    You made a good observation: he has just a pot size bet left. But then, why do you prefer to abandon him the betting initiative?
    Considering you open and open UTG, you should have all better combos. His raise screams KX, and except if you've KJ or AA (which would dicey to play here), you should be ahead or split. V should have KT-KQ when you should have KJ-AK.

    If he raises you, and raises somehow small - if I'm V and want you to fold, I will pot bet or more (so at least 130$) - he is saying he has KX. He could also have an extremely weirdly and badly played AA or AsXs (esp. AsQs). So he likes his hands and at this point, I don't think he is going anywhere.

    So why not 3-bet shove here ? If river is a brick and you check, how can you be sure he will bet ? In extenso, how can you be sure to be maxEV ? (If he bet-fold 70$, then you've missed some value when you're ahead)

    I think here it's a good spot to shove KJ+/QQ/KK.
    I don't think your call is -EV, but I think it's not maxEV as by abandoning the betting initiative you suddenly rely on the river and his reaction to the river.
  • Jónas SJónas S Red Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    If you put villain on a king then you should raise the turn. He'll shove over you often enough or at least call the raise, giving him an easier time to call a smaller bet on the river if he decides to slow down on the river for any reason.

    If you think he's bluffing then smooth-call.

    You got unlucky. Nothing wrong with the play in general but the play is not the best if you think he has a hand that is ready to go all in on the turn anyway. Get it all in, see what you're up against, feel free to run in to reduce variance if that's what you and villain want.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    River is a fold and a good bet by villain. Villain can account for all the Kings so makes your calling range AA or Qx only. Since you don't have much to call with he made a small value bet. Good for him. Now it's your turn to stick to your read and not pay him off. He did have 7 outs.

    With that said i do like raising the turn because another spade can kill the action. We pretty much know he has Kx. Just hope its not K8 or Kq. A rainbow board i think i am flatting the turn and raising river. Maybe donk betting incase he checks back a hand like KT.

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