AA versus 4 opponents

ThorThor Red Chipper Posts: 41
edited January 2017 in Live Poker Hands
$2/5
STacks $500-$1500

Hero..$1200

One LAG opening a high percentage of hands. He has created a lot of multi way pots. Most of the players because of this seem weak loose to me. I generally open for 3x (+1 for each limper). I am the only one who seems to 3 bet (3 or 4 times light in a few hours) None of the hands were shown. Not sure what my image is...TAG? Not sure these players, who are regulars, pay much attention to images.

3 limpers...I make it $25 (my largest raise in session was to $20) on the button with :As:Ac

SB, UTG, 2 more limpers call.

:4d:5h:6c

check, check, check, donk $60. what should hero do?

I called. SB calls . UTG (brand new player with $500) goes all in. donker folds.

Pot $365 +$415= $780...$415 to call (SB has hero covered)

Easy fold? Easy call? Is calling on the flop a bad idea? Is raising the flop a good idea?

Thanks!
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Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    With three limpers in front of you, your $25 raise is exactly what these fish are hoping for... a small raise they can feel comfortable l/calling. The magic formula, the alchemical string of numbers for beating low stakes games is 4x+x(#lmps)=PFR, in other words, your raise should be to $35, at least. This has so many benefits I won't even list them, but I will say that the 3x that you currently use is better for tougher games, which yours can't be if three people limped from up front.

    As played, I would raise a donk bet as all the alternatives suck, but this is no longer a great spot now that I invited the donkey pack into my home, even if AA rates to be ahead. I would get it in against the right opponent(s), but not against the deeper ones or more competent ones. There is not really that much different between this spot and a limped pot, and do you go broke with AA there?
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote:
    With three limpers in front of you, your $25 raise is exactly what these fish are hoping for... a small raise they can feel comfortable l/calling. The magic formula, the alchemical string of numbers for beating low stakes games is 4x+x(#lmps)=PFR, in other words, your raise should be to $35, at least. This has so many benefits I won't even list them, but I will say that the 3x that you currently use is better for tougher games, which yours can't be if three people limped from up front.

    +1


    The problem with letting fishy players take aggression is that their definition of "value" is generally wider than a decent player "value" hands + fishy players tend to treat all "value" hands alike and focus more on the get it in part where decent players relize their "value" can decrease or increase depending on action. This is all the reason to be the aggressor against these type players. Therefore bigger opening raises and raising the flop makes playing this hand alot more easier.

    The biggest threat here really is the SB since he have you covered. However how does his hand looks after just check/calling the flop? Does any monster hands on the flop take this line in a multiway pot?

    The UTG player limp/call PF then check/shove. He may be new and yea we have absolutely no read on him the general assumption im making here is that no big hand just limps/calls. He looks like he can have top pair, overpairs, pairs + draws, 2 pair & occasionally the dreaded sets. However with this general assumption i'll be willing to gamble right here and now.

    -Rello
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • ThorThor Red Chipper Posts: 41
    Thanks for the input.

    At least $35 pre flop raise? Wouldn't that force my opponents to play correctly? I don't know the answer, but which situation would you rather have?

    1)AA on the button against 4 opponents and $130 ($105 their money) pot.
    2)AA heads up IP with a $77 pot ($42 their money)/ or everyone fold and win $22

    If I make it $40, what is my range on the button? Is my hand face up? Am I making it $40 with AJ suited as well?

    I used to raise 5x + 1 for each limper. I switched to 3x to generate more action, and get more hands that are dominated to continue.

    Please feel free to list your reasons or thinking, or why my initial thoughts are flawed.

    Thanks!
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Thor wrote:
    At least $35 pre flop raise? Wouldn't that force my opponents to play correctly? I don't know the answer, but which situation would you rather have?

    No it wouldn't, if they are bad to limp in the first place then only thing on their mind is they want to play their hand. Your raise accomplishes alot of things but these 2 points is the big reason:

    1. To discourage weaker holding from entering. This doesn't mean they play correctly just because a few more hands fold, if they start folding a ton and only continue with premium or extremely tight range then you make money just off of fold equity alone. Which means they aren't playing correctly, right?

    2. Generate value: If you are going to see a multiway pot then at least build a big pot pre so they are more committed postflop with their weaker hands. You have a value hand, so generate value. In these types of games your mindset should consist alot of "how to gain more money from my opponent". If raising 5x, 6x or even 10x generates value then by all means keep raising it up.
    Thor wrote:
    1)AA on the button against 4 opponents and $130 ($105 their money) pot.
    2)AA heads up IP with a $77 pot ($42 their money)/ or everyone fold and win $22

    Im always aiming for a heads up pot. If i know i am more likely to go multiway then i am trying to raise enough here to have a big pot going in postflop. If everyone folds and then i am thinking about how often do they limp fold and attack that.
    Thor wrote:
    If I make it $40, what is my range on the button? Is my hand face up? Am I making it $40 with AJ suited as well?

    Your range shouldn't change much. Your hand isn't face up if you keep your raise size consistent. If you open AA to $40 on the button then your opening AJs, ATs and even KQs to $40 as well. Don't be scared to play poker. If they are entering the pot with weaker range then start collecting value preflop.
    Thor wrote:
    I used to raise 5x + 1 for each limper. I switched to 3x to generate more action, and get more hands that are dominated to continue.

    While having a wider range continue is never a bad idea in some cases, by this being your only reason for making it small is almost always terrible. The game of poker will always present options, opportunities and different variables for different outcomes. Consider them all. Think about value, think about fold equity if there is any. I hear all the time live games are so much softer than online games and i know when ever i find myself playing soft games online, im killing em with the value raises, especially preflop!. If they continue to play a passive game where they are calling alot more than raising you already have an enormous advantage. The downside in allowing a wide range to continue is that you giving them more chances to realize their equity which will create a more variance style to poker. Deny them their equity, make them call you and get value.

    - Rello
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1) The point is raising to an amount where they make the mistake, not you. When you offer them an attractive price, they are playing their hand perfectly, which happens to be exactly what you were worried about.

    2) If you are never getting action, which I doubt is a problem, you aren't isolating with a wide enough range.

    3) Your hand was "face up" when you made it $25, so making it $35 gets more money in.

    4) Yes, make it the same with AJss, and all your raising hands, down to 54ss or whatever is your range. Now you are not face up, and they are not playing perfectly against you.

    I'm perfectly aware that there is a case for making it $25 and inducing all these calls and getting more in the pot versus more players, but you will make more mistakes and face more marginal situations overall.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    I'll just say this:

    Live players are fundamentally unsound, which is why making it more makes sense. They are plenty of players who simply are inelastic to raise sizes and will still continue.

    Also, you want to share the least amount of equity with other players. In fact, this is the only true reason for raising pre-flop. Raising pre-flop is not for "value". It's for isolation and the clearing up of equity share. Therefore, make a raise size that accomplishes these goals.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Also, you want to share the least amount of equity with other players. In fact, this is the only true reason for raising pre-flop. Raising pre-flop is not for "value". It's for isolation and the clearing up of equity share. Therefore, make a raise size that accomplishes these goals.

    Ok first time i actually heard anybody ever said "Raising pre-flop is not for value"... While i do agree with everything else, why is it not for value? If we know villian for continuing with worse where we know we are going to be ahead a decent number of time why is it not value at preflop? More importantly when does a hand really become for value? At the river only? So are we only denying and realizing equity before then?

    I might have taken this far but i really much curious of hearing your thought break-down on how you define value and why there cannot be a "value" raise even at preflop. My assumption has always been, if your bet can cause a number of worse hands to continue then its basically a "value" bet. So if you can i am actually curious about this statement
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • ihbeiserihbeiser Red Chipper Posts: 26
    I saw an article or video that Ed did recently that stated something to the effect it is preferable to have 4 players rather than 1 with a hand like AA. I believe the point was that even though you will loose the hand more frequently, there will be more +ev since there is more money in the pot and you still have the highest equity share. Not sure I'm getting that right or if I am sold on the concept yet but perhaps he can comment on that as this scenario looks like it would relate to that concept.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    ihbeiser wrote:
    I saw an article or video that Ed did recently that stated something to the effect it is preferable to have 4 players rather than 1 with a hand like AA. I believe the point was that even though you will loose the hand more frequently, there will be more +ev since there is more money in the pot and you still have the highest equity share. Not sure I'm getting that right or if I am sold on the concept yet but perhaps he can comment on that as this scenario looks like it would relate to that concept.

    It just can't be. Aces do not want to share its equity with this many other hands. But I rather have Ed come on here and clear this up because I don't want to speak for him.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Rello242 wrote:
    Also, you want to share the least amount of equity with other players. In fact, this is the only true reason for raising pre-flop. Raising pre-flop is not for "value". It's for isolation and the clearing up of equity share. Therefore, make a raise size that accomplishes these goals.

    Ok first time i actually heard anybody ever said "Raising pre-flop is not for value"... While i do agree with everything else, why is it not for value? If we know villian for continuing with worse where we know we are going to be ahead a decent number of time why is it not value at preflop? More importantly when does a hand really become for value? At the river only? So are we only denying and realizing equity before then?

    I might have taken this far but i really much curious of hearing your thought break-down on how you define value and why there cannot be a "value" raise even at preflop. My assumption has always been, if your bet can cause a number of worse hands to continue then its basically a "value" bet. So if you can i am actually curious about this statement

    Warning: this may get long.
    I'll start with post flop just so we can begin to grasped the concept in its simplest form.

    Let's say you have Aces. And you raise preflop and someone calls. And the Flop comes :Xc:Xd:Xh, and you bet and he calls. Turn comes :Xs, and you bet and he folds. If I ask you if you made value with your Aces, you would say yes. The reason you may state is that your opponent called a bet Pre-Flop and a bet on Flop with what was likely to be a worst hand. But let's magically replace your Aces with two Jokers, did you still make value? You may say no, now you bluffed. But what is the difference unless he calls you down and you have to showdown with your Aces/Jokers? No difference.

    If we move this concept to prior to the Flop; do we raise :8s:9s Pre-Flop for value? Of course not, because we have 9-high. So are we bluffing? Not really because we have a playable hand, and we are trying to get Post-flop where we can force our opponent(s) to make mistakes. However, we can agree that it is difficult to force opponents into mistakes if we go extremely Multi-way. Therefore, we raise for isolation Pre-Flop. This holds true whether you have :As:Ah or :8s:9s or :atc1 :atc2.

    This can be further extrapolated to Flop raises as well. :)
    Sometimes they are neither for "Value" or "Bluff", as you will have Top Pair, face a bet, and you choose to raise which can be 'value' with two streets to go, but you just may have to turn it into a bluff later if need be. This can be done if you can correctly deduce your opponent's range to be hands that are likely to be better than yours, but however a range that is capped as a whole. Therefore, your Flop raise is just a raise that allows you to not make future mistakes, and/or force your opponent into mistakes.

    Read this: http://redchippoker.com/long-ball-poker/

    The rabbit hole goes deep.

    "No hand has value until showdown."- Phil Galfond
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    ^ I tried to keep this as concise as possible. This can go way further but wanted to just give enough to get the point across. I'll keep an eye on the thread though.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Warning: This post is long.
    So basically as long as there are cards to come, "value" itself only comes from after seeing all 5 cards?

    So question: Lets jump into a scenario where im 3betting :As:Ah one hand and 3betting :8s:9s another hand. Usually i would say im capping both ranges, but with :As:Ah im capping with the intention of making a worse hand commit & :8s:9s im capping with the intention of making some better hands fold but looking to take advantage of forcing mistakes. So your saying this whole process isn't really :As:Ah getting "value" in a nutshell even though sometimes it can turn into a bluff and :8s:9s being a "bluff" even though it can turn into value?

    The thing is i understand how future streets could play out and yes it matters, but then whats the reason of having certain classification like "semi-bluff" "showdown value" if we aren't thinking in terms of what our hands looks like?

    Preflop wise, you are right but then what is our thought on the "strength" of our hand when we raise :As:Ah , :8s:9s or :Jc:2d ? I recognize there are other reasons outside of classifying your hands but do i now look at J2o the same way of AA? What i am trying to grasp here is i expect AA to have a decent amount of equity and against certain ranges, i do understand this isn't 100% to 0% but 60%/40% or 70%/30% is still favorable to at least think that if you can get more money in this spot you are getting value right? While it aint favorable to get more money in with 89s and J2o, one hand is much more playable and the other well, pretty much isn't. So is it wrong to get the idea that 89s being raised is more like a semi-bluff where you don't mind folds but don't mind calls either? Where as if you raising J2o you simply want folds, say if your stealing?

    Same idea when you calling pre as well, except it becomes a bit more complicated. If im calling AA then am i to get value from weaker ranges? If i call with J2o then am i hoping to be bluffing him off his hands and get folds?

    I think my main concern is this: If i am not making this classification then what happens vs an opponent that is unknown? If i am just isolating and forcing mistakes and hands doesn't matter then are you saying that as long as i can keep forcing mistakes its okay to just play whatever hands? <- These answers may lead into some more complicated scenarios and questions if you are up to it. :D
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    ^ I tried to keep this as concise as possible. This can go way further but wanted to just give enough to get the point across. I'll keep an eye on the thread though.

    I noticed, you are opening up some lights upon my game so before i jump straight into the light i think i need to fully grasp everything you are claiming so im not sure if concise is going to be 1 or 2 post, either way, have patience and work with me here :)

    Thank you in advance.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Haha!
    I'll get to all this after I finally sleep.
    But I think you may be too boxed into classifications of hands and hand strengths and values.

    You may want a concrete solution. But understand and embrace that NL deep stack postflop is unsolveable.

    For example you state Showdown Value. But what is "showdown value" really? Think hard.

    Because if you are in a scenario where you can showdown a "showdown value" hand, then that means your Fold Equity is through the roof and you could be barreling off.
    But some average poker people will say you are wrong because you have "showdown value". LOL.
    It's just a term that was invented.

    Like "Pot Control". Another term that has set people back years.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Haha!
    I'll get to all this after I finally sleep.
    But I think you may be too boxed into classifications of hands and hand strengths and values.

    You may want a concrete solution. But understand and embrace that NL deep stack postflop is unsolveable.

    For example you state Showdown Value. But what is "showdown value" really? Think hard.

    Because if you are in a scenario where you can showdown a "showdown value" hand, then that means your Fold Equity is through the roof and you could be barreling off.
    But some average poker people will say you are wrong because you have "showdown value". LOL.
    It's just a term that was invented.

    Like "Pot Control". Another term that has set people back years.

    Lol, the best response....
    based off of this i think what your saying is stay focused on what your doing and not what it is. Correct? So if i have a hand plan out and i know what i am trying to accomplish then what i have at the moment is irrelevant?
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    This is why I say "burn the books". I can tell you are a good player but you are a little boxed in - through no fault of your own. I'm trying to shake you out of it lol.

    Look at poker like this:

    'Play every hand as it were a bluff. And if you run into value then so be it.'

    Truth is, most of the time you won't have anything. So protecting your bluffs is of utmost importance in all scenarios.

    So yeah in theory J2o, 89s, AA all have the same value until showdown. Does it mean we are going to play J2o? Of course not.

    But the point is, that until showdown your hand doesn't matter. And in theory, you should be balanced and have bluffs to offset all your value sided bets.
    And also, if your opponent plays perfectly he should have enough of a continuance range to make it indifferent.

    Therefore, your job is to force your opponent to make mistakes. That is all.
    And to loop around back to the beginning, the best way to make your opponent make errors is through isolation which becomes the only true reason for raising preflop.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Rello242 wrote:
    Haha!
    I'll get to all this after I finally sleep.
    But I think you may be too boxed into classifications of hands and hand strengths and values.

    You may want a concrete solution. But understand and embrace that NL deep stack postflop is unsolveable.

    For example you state Showdown Value. But what is "showdown value" really? Think hard.

    Because if you are in a scenario where you can showdown a "showdown value" hand, then that means your Fold Equity is through the roof and you could be barreling off.
    But some average poker people will say you are wrong because you have "showdown value". LOL.
    It's just a term that was invented.

    Like "Pot Control". Another term that has set people back years.

    Lol, the best response....
    based off of this i think what your saying is stay focused on what your doing and not what it is. Correct? So if i have a hand plan out and i know what i am trying to accomplish then what i have at the moment is irrelevant?

    Exactly, what are you trying to accomplish with your hand in a given spot, and how can you make your opponent make a mistake.
    These things are way more important than what your hand is and where it falls into a Poker Definition book.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Rello242 wrote:
    Warning: This post is long.
    ... I do understand this isn't 100% to 0% but 60%/40% or 70%/30% is still favorable to at least think that if you can get more money in this spot you are getting value right? ...

    Again, way too simplistic. How about if the 40% hand raises? Did the "value" of your hand change? Even though it's still at 60%, pending the spot, and since you can't see through his cards, it sure feels like it did.

    However, more money is going in, so you are getting more value? Not really because you still have to avoid folding and try to showdown.

    You see the problem?

    Therefore, we can conclude that your hand does not have any value until showdown.


    ... drops the mic and walks off stage.
  • HerocallerHerocaller Red Chipper Posts: 69
    I wish I could click "like" certain posts....or perhaps "raise" vs "fold"...or some other relevant poker jargon
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Herocaller wrote:
    I wish I could click "like" certain posts....or perhaps "raise" vs "fold"...or some other relevant poker jargon

    Very true. I don't know the logistics of making that happen, but I'll bring it up.
  • tagliustaglius Red Chipper Posts: 290 ✭✭
    A "clearing equity share" preflop example can be found when you steal blinds against tight straightforward players with a hand like :Ah:2c. The primary reason for the raise is not to get better to fold (though A3 often folds) or to get worse to call (though KQ often calls) - it's to win the dead money (blinds) by getting all those hands and others to fold their 30-70% equity share.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Christian i just want to say i like the points you made out,

    While you challenge me to change my thought process on the idea i still had to sort of defend what i felt was almost like religion to me, and not in a way that i just wanted to pick a debate but in a sense that i really need to understand the idea deeply that goes against something that i believe was like a golden egg in my game.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Rello242 wrote:
    Christian i just want to say i like the points you made out,

    While you challenge me to change my thought process on the idea i still had to sort of defend what i felt was almost like religion to me, and not in a way that i just wanted to pick a debate but in a sense that i really need to understand the idea deeply that goes against something that i believe was like a golden egg in my game.

    Haha of course I get it!

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