Hand #1

zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
Alright, I'm gonna give this a go!

My Opening Range: 77+, AJs+, A5s-A2s, KJs+, AQo+
8% of range/108 combos
Weakest opening pair: 77
Weakest Suited Connector: KJs
Weakest Ax: A2

Flop: Ah9c2s

Continuing with: 99+, AJs+, A5s-A2s, AQo+ - 6.6% of range, 88 combos
Betting: Big Ax, KK, QQ
Checking: Small Ax, A2, 99
Check/Raise: A2, 99, Ax a couple of the suits of small Ax, JJ, TT
Check/Call: all the rest of Ax, JJ, TT
Folding rest of range

Bet AA and KK, check/call A4dd

Turn: Ah9c2sJh
Continuing with: AA, JJ, 99, AJs+, A2s, Ah5h-Ah3h, AQo+ -- 4%, 61 combos
Betting: A9, A2, AK, AQ
C/R: AA, 99, JJ, A5/4/3 (would I rather C/R with KK or QQ? What is a check/raise doing here? Balancing the sets. Maybe I should have some non-A FD to c/r here?)
C/C: all other Ax hands
Folding: KK, QQ, TT

AKo - calling
AcJc - this could be a raisable hand or is a call?
Khqh - if I had it here would be a raise for sure but I don’t think I have it?

River: Ah9c2sJhKs
My range now is AA, JJ, 99, AJs+, A2s, AKo -- 3.4% 46 combos
Betting: AA, AK, AJ
C/R/F: A2, A9, AQ, A5 (bluff)
C/C: JJ, 99, all other Ax hands left as bluff catchers

99 is a check/call
KhQh is not here…
AQ is a check/raise/fold as a bluff to balance 2p hands here

Push on the river, getting 2:1, so only have to be good 33% of the time
Against this range:AA, JJ, 99, ATs+, KhTh+, QTs, QhJh, AcKh, AdKh, AcQh, AdQh, AcJh, AdJh
99: 62% - call
JJ: 72% — call
AA: 77% — call
AK: 45% — call
AQ: 26% — fold

The wider his range is here with the various 2p the better our value hands do and worse our marginal do. Also depends on how much V will include bluffs here. How likely is he to bluff the river? How likely is he to have made it here with a FD? What would he be calling/bluffing? No Axhh. K9hh? QThh? Weak TAG would likely not have a lot of those hands here, so prob very few bluffs. So don’t need a lot of bluff catchers on the end, I don't think.

I realized later too that I need a check/raise/call range too, maybe?

And still trying to see how to find the combo I hold at the table in these ranges in spots like this, quickly.

Interested to see if anyone stuck with me this far - I kinda dug way deep into these exercises, which I think is the point!

Comments

  • Ben HaylesBen Hayles RCP Coach Posts: 16 ✭✭
    Well done zampana. I've scanned through your answer quickly and I'm impressed with the detail. This is exactly what is intended. If you drill through these, you'll start to find it easier to translate to live play.

    What are the pros and cons of including KQs/KJs (with backdoor draws) in your Cbet flop range?
    What are your precise pot odds for calling the shove on the river?
  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    Hey Ben thanks for the check over!

    The KQs/KJs BDs are great for cbetting as they have some big card blocker card value, so we might fold out some PPs, some of the 2nd or 3rd pairs. Cons would be we're going to run into Ax a good part of the time, so we'd prob want to size our cbet a little lower - say 1/3 to 1/2 pot, so that we only have to get a fold 25 to 33% of the time?

    We are getting 2.1:1 to call their shove. I believe...

  • Ben HaylesBen Hayles RCP Coach Posts: 16 ✭✭
    @zampana1970 I like your thinking regarding the Cbet sizing - we can probably get away with choosing different sizes against this opponent. You might want to check those pot odds once more on the river (27BB to call / Pot 93.4BB). Try and express them as a percentage so you can easily compare it with your perceived equity (of each hand e.g. AQo you said you had 28% equity with).
  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    Yes good call of course keeping everything in percentages makes total sense. We're getting 29% odds here so if the AQo is in fact 28% then we have a slight value call.
  • QuadzillaQuadzilla Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    Greetings, I'm a beginner with range building workbooks. On the turn zampana1970 said he'd continue with Ah5h-Ah3h, but the Ah can't be in his range, since it's on the board, no? (Very impressive breakdown, by the way. I can see I have a long way to go...)
  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    Yes good point. There are likely all kinds of little errors in there. I think I neglected to have card removal turned on in my hand range builder...
  • Martin BMartin B Red Chipper Posts: 1 ✭✭
    Z- I found your analysis thorough and thoughtful. It is very helpful to see your thoughts and then go back over my own ranges and thought processes. I'm still wrapping my brain around flopzilla and working like this. I have not gotten to go over it in depth yet but my range preflop was just a percent wider than yours with a few more suited connectors and minus the A2-5s hands. I usually don't play them in such early position. At first blush I see that I did not c bet with a wide enough percentage of my opening range on the flop. Thanks for posting and please continue!
  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    Will do! This is what I love about this workbook: there is no answer key. We can come to the table with different ranges (and we should!) and in comparing we can get the flavor of how different players construct. When it comes to the later hands in the book, where we are constructing V ranges, we can use what we're learning here to make sure the ranges we make aren't just be mirrors of our own. I'd love to see players who will play wider ranges in these spots and love to hear their arguments of why they decide to play that way.
  • Patrik BPatrik B Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    Hi all,
    I will also give it a go. I've never done something so extensive like this and I am probably going to make a fool out of myself. I am also not a native speaker so my grammar will probably also be off.

    Anyway to the hand:

    My Opening Range: 77+, AJs+, AQo+, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s
    7.8% of range/104 combos
    Weakest opening pair: 77
    Weakest Suited Connector: 98s
    Weakest Ax: AQo

    Flop: Ah9c2s

    On the Flop, I am probably going to bet my range. Maybe I am not betting AA since it smashes the Flop so hard.

    I am going to bet about 1/3 - 1/2 Pot - As played the bet needs to work about 28%

    A small bet on a dry A high flop should do the trick since Willans KX, Suited Connectors do literally have nothing to continue on.

    I am betting 96.6% of previous range - 84 combos
    77+ - KK, AJs+, AQo+, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s

    Turn: Ah9c2sJh

    So when called on the Flop I think that Ax makes a lot of villains range.
    I would continue to bet my strong hands for Value since I am getting called with hands like A5, A3, ---

    I am betting 45.6 % of previous range - 36 Combos
    JJ,99,Ako-AQo,AKs-AJs,KhQh,Th9h, 9h8h

    I am going to check-call with hands like KK, QQ

    River: Ah9c2sJhKs

    I would still bet a lot of my range for Value and I would give up on the missed draws.
    I am betting about 90.9 % of previous range - 30 Combos

    The river jam is interesting: We only need about 29% Equity to make the call but I just can't really see what hand would take this line that we beat with AQ.

    Would villain ever have something different than JJ,99,AQs-A9s,AQo-AJo? If not, our Equity with AQ would only be around 23.44%


    I have to admit, that is rather hard to go through this book on my own. If someone feels the same and would love to talk through the examples together, let me know. I would love to do that.

    Love to hear your feedback
    Cheers
    Patrik
  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    Hey Patrik - curious why you cbet your full range?
  • Patrik BPatrik B Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    Hey zampana,
    great question :)

    After thinking about it, maybe I should adjust the line to the position in am raising from.

    My thinking was, that we are going to hit this board a lot with our range.

    So I c-bet for two reasons:

    1. If we hit the board good / great I would love to get value from hands that villain will call. The villain will most likely call down 2-3 streets with hands like A4, AT.

    2. If we miss, the small c-bet is going to fold a lot of hands that could catch up at the river and is probably always going to be profitable because there is no way, that villain is going to defend with 66%- 75% of his flatting range. Given, that we c-bet 1/3 - 1/2 pot.

    But then again I could be totally wrong about my line and my thinking. I think just going through the book myself will help me think about ranges but is probably not going to help me find the best lines in different hands.

    Do you work with other players?
  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    Do I work with other players as in coaching? Good lord no I'm no where near ready for that if ever. Just sharing my learning!

    Might be worth checking out Ed Miller's 1% - and here I'm not totally sure whether I'm right or wrong here but I feel like there has to be some hands that we check/fold here because a) we want to start cutting down our range for future streets -- otherwise we end up with too many combos later in the hand and b) we want to have a check/raising and check/calling range for those times when we have monsters that we don't want V to fold out of, and for when we have some value but don't want to bloat the pot - TPWK maybe. So to balance those combos we're checking and continuing with we need some bluffs and we need some folding hands too -- otherwise V will know to put us on a hand if we check, cuz we never fold to their bet.
  • Patrik BPatrik B Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    I was not talking about coaching more about this. Talking over hands, lines and so on. I truly enjoy talking with you and it get's me thinking a lot. I know, that I have still a lot of weakness in my game and talking over spots really pushes me forward.

    I will definitely think about me checking range a lot in the next couple of days.

    I don't know maybe you would like to talk through some of the examples together. If so, let me know it would be great and I think we could both learn new things (or bad ones in my case :)
  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    Ya man I'm totally in. I'd like to keep it in the forums because I feel like it's the best place for people to come later to see what we talked about - as opposed to skype say or slack. Is that cool?
  • zampana1970zampana1970 Red Chipper Posts: 549 ✭✭✭
    Who is "you" and what is the "entire thing?"
  • Greg_the_EngineerGreg_the_Engineer Red Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
    First timer here as well. :) For the attached Hand #1 I wasn't sure if I was doing it correctly, and what to put in on the final page of Hand #1. Also, when do we start looking at HRC and the ICM stuff with the payouts?
  • Mark FlemingMark Fleming Red Chipper Posts: 76 ✭✭
    The blinds are $250/$500 with antes of $50, making my M Ratio (41) which is nowhere near the shove/fold territory.

    I have the second largest stack and the Weak TAg on the BU has aproximately half that. The chip leader is not involved. I open with 4BB from early position in a game where most raises have been getting through.

    I am OOP, with seven players yet to act, so my range is tight 20% (270) AA-22,AKo-ATo,KQo-KTo,QJo-QTo,JTo,AKs-ATs,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s. Since I am not likely to be challenged, this includes a lot of speculative hands. I bet this to take the lead and to see a flop.

    Weak TAg on the BU calls, typical for the type. My play OOP and my significant stack advantage should make the villain nervous.

    Flop: :Ah:9c:2s
    I would not raise with any PP that does not form a set, all my other combos contain an Ace, 24% of previous, (57) AA,99,22,AKo-ATo,AKs-ATs. All 2 card bckdr FD are in my Ace combos. I have no SDs.

    I bet 4 BB and he calls so he is on a draw. If he has an ace it must be weak or he is slow playing a set.

    Turn :Jh
    I bet 8 BB and the Weak TAg calls. This is standard Weak TAg behavior, he has improved. I am betting with TP, 2P and sets, 100% of previous (62) If my AXs is hearts I still have a flush draw. KhQh was eliminated PF. I’m at AA,99,22,AKo-ATo,AKs-A7s.

    River :Ks
    I would bet with my sets (AA, 99, 22)and with 2P (AK, AJ). AQ is a check. If Weak TAg calls my bet and I loose I still have 36 BB and an M Ratio of 16. I’d be out of shove/fold territory for a bit longer. But the blinds are going up?

    Weak TAg shoves and I now think Weak TAg has been playing with KhQh, hoping for a flush or a straight or the royal. He shoves now with KK which is better than waiting for the next hand, when he has the shortest stack ($8000) and an even smaller M ratio when the blinds go up.
  • PeanutBoyPeanutBoy CanadaRed Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Hello, I am new to the forum just bought the exercise book, HRC and flopzilla. Looking to improve my post flop game and decision making. Here is my shot at hand #1.

    Preflop range:AA-22,AKo-ATo,KQo-KJo,AKs-A2s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s,76s,65s

    We have a fairly wide preflop range for a UTG+1, this is a somewhat exploitative strategy. If the table starts 3 betting us and playing back we can consider adjusting our range.

    What is the weakest starting hand of each category that you would open-raise here?
    Pocket Pairs: 22
    Suited Connectors: 65
    Ace X: ATo,A2s

    Flop: Ah9c2s
    On the flop to balance my checking range, I check back all top pairs that aren't at least AQ+. That way I protect my weak and middling pairs that don't want to play a big pot and hopefully make it to showdown. They are also hands that can stand a check/bet, or a bet on the turn and river. So my betting range are all my draws, all my nutted hands, my strongest top pairs and most of my BDFDS and some of my weak pairs to balance my range.
    On this type of board texture that should hit me and villain pretty hard but isn't draw heavy, I would bet small. Trying to keep in middle pairs, weak aces, and pocket pairs over 99s. I don't think I would ever bet big on this board, or check raise.

    Would you CBet or check with the following hands?
    AA: Cbet
    KK: check
    Ad4d: check

    Bet small( 1/3 pot): AA,99-22,AKo-AQo,KQo-KJo,AKs-AQs,A9s,A2s,KhQh,KcQc,KsQs,KhJh,KcJc,KsJs,KhTh,KcTc,KsTs,QhJh,QcJc,QsJs,QhTh,QcTc,QsTs,JhTh,JcTc,JsTs,Th8h,Tc8c,Ts8s,8h7h,8c7c,8s7s,7h6h,7c6c,7s6s,6h5h,6c5c,6s5s
    check/call: KK-TT,AJo-ATo,AJs-ATs,A8s-A3s,J9s,T9s,98s-97s
    check/fold: KQo-KJo,KdQd,KdJd,KdTd,QdJd,QdTd,JdTd,Td8d,8d7d,7d6d,6d5d

    Turn: Ah9c2sJh
    On the turn, considering that my opponent is a weak TAG and that he may not re-raise me with the top of his range I would continue betting with a polarized range of draws to the nuts, OESD, gutshots and my top premium range. I opted to check/call with my hands that turned some equity, my weaker draws and lot of my range that can stand a turn and river bet from inferior holdings. As for my check/fold range I can let go my weak pairs at this point and my weak suited connectors. Since the Jh brings in many draws and hits both of our range here, I would bet big with all of my betting range, hoping to get all the money in on the river with my big draws that hit and my current nutted hands.

    Which hands from your range would you bet the turn with here, and what would your bet size be for the following hands?
    Ako: 80% pot
    AcJc: 80% pot
    KhQh: 80% pot

    Big(4/5pot):AA,99,22,AKo,AKs,A9s,A2s,KhQh,KcQc,KsQs,KhTh,KcTc,KsTs,QhTh,QcTc,QsTs,Tc8c,Ts8s,8c7c,8s7s
    check/call:AQo,AQs,KcJc,KsJs,QcJc,QsJs,JcTc,JsTs,Th8h,8h7h,7h6h,6h5h
    check/fold:88-33,7c6c,7s6s,6c5c,6s5s

    River:Ah9c2sJhKs
    On the river I think I bet to keep my bluff and premium made range balance I would bet with 100% of my range.

    Betting:AA,99,22,AKo,AKs,A9s,A2s,KhQh,KcQc,KsQs,KhTh,KcTc,KsTs,QhTh,QcTc,QsTs,Tc8c,Ts8s,8c7c,8s7s

    Would you bet or check the river with:
    99: bet
    KhQh: bet
    AQ: not im my range anymore

    On the re-raise from the villain I need to win roughly 33% of the time to win the hand so I should call with about 77% of my range, considering that my opponent is a Weak Tag I dont think he is ever light or bluff shoving in that situation so I would call with my nuts, my sets and my combos of AKs.

    Out of the hands left in your range, would you bet/fold the river with:
    AA/JJ/99: no
    AK: no
    AQ: not in my range but if it was yes.


    calling:AA,99,22,AKo,AKs,QhTh,QcTc,QsTs
    folding:A9s,A2s,KhQh,KcQc,KhTh,KcTc,Tc8c,Ts8s,8c7c,8s7s

    Very interesting exercise It took me two days to work it out. Really makes you reflect on you're range and balancing it out to the river, witch when you do get there gets to be super narrow. Certainly opened up my mind on my post flop plays and the holes in my post-flop games.
  • thebmc9thebmc9 Red Chipper Posts: 2 ✭✭
    Hand 1:

    Just started going through the workbook. First question took me 2 attempts (still getting my head around the process and the software).

    Here's my response.

    Question 1:
    Preflop raising range UTG+1: AA-77,AKo-ATo,KQo,AKs-ATs,KQs-KJs,QJs,JTs (10.6% 140combos).
    Weakest:
    PP: 77
    SC: J10
    AX: A10s and A10o

    Flop: Thought I might check J10, QJ, 77 and 88.

    Initially I considered checking AA but I will keep it in my Cbet range and hope villain connected in someway, would bet ½ pot, and bet 2/3rds with KK and A4.

    CBet Range: AA-99,AKo-ATo,AKs-ATs 66.1% 78combos.

    Turn: Range (that I would bet): AA,JJ,99,AKo-ATo,AKs-ATs 75% 54 combos (I may consider checking with A10, AQ
    AKO: Bet size ½ bot
    AJ: May consider checking this
    KQhearts: Not in range at this point

    River: Range and Combos same as Turn.
    I would now check with most top pairs with the intention of calling a bet with AQ (not all in) and folding A 10 (to a bet)
    99: I would bet
    AQ: I would check call (not thinking of calling a shove here).
    villain Shoves giving me 29% pot odds.
    Insta call with AA 99 and JJ
    Would call with AK
    AQ is slightly profitable @ 33.3% but I really don’t know if I would call as Villain probably puts me on an ace this with my triple barrel and still shoves. Would a weak TAG do this? This is definitely a break even spot and I wonder if holding onto my chips would be a smarter play?

    Overall, I found this analysis quite tricky at first but very much enjoyed the overall process and insights (before this I would have like snap called with AQ and also have a wider range both preflop and by this point).


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