Tpsk vs donk shove

Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,867 -
edited January 2017 in Live Poker Hands
Red Rock, Monday afternoon. Nitty regular game.

Like 6 limpers, I make it $20 OTB with :Ah:Qh

All fold except second to last limper.

:A? :7? :3?

Pot is $50 eff stacks $110

Villain donk shoves. Typical old man coffee type. Not creative, not particularly skilled.

Do you call?
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Comments

  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭✭
    So it looks like you need a little more than 30% equity to call off top of my head??

    Against :A? :K? only cant do it.
    Against :A? :Q? and :A? :K? I think you have enough. Barely.


    Rainbow flop? Did you have back door Hearts? Might add 2-3% to you EV. If so ...

    I call. Expect to see :A? :K? a ton.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    I call. Expect to see :A? :K? a ton.

    I beg to differ here. While i am curious to figure what limps call the flop here, i do expect :A? :K? to be raising pre or getting somewhat aggro. Im a bit unsure what "nits" feel they could limp with, so I'll just assume these "nits" are probably looking to get good odds with holding suited to make a big pot with.

    Im leaning on seeing something like baby pairs, baby connectors and suited aces more in this case, so 33 for sure could shove, 77 for sure could shove and maybe A3s and A7s could shove. These are the hands that beats me that i put in his range.

    The real question is how good are the villians after postflop?

    Since this situation is more unknown to me i am more likely to think that these nits aren't just going to shove a Ax hand here or worse. So im taking the fold here until i get more information.
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
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  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    I SNAP so fast!

    We like money. LOL
  • ButchButch Red Chipper Posts: 163 ✭✭
    don't see any choice here. i'd have to shove.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    I think its a fold. He puts you on AK..he expects you to call. This is a set like always....some small % its AK or AQ (if he does not raise them pre). How is this ever AJ...I doubt he calls $20 pre flop with weaker Aces....

    If he shoves weaker hands you would have noticed it already...droolers have puddle in front of them.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,867 -
    In these games, I have been amazed how AK is a limp call hand. Hell AA and KK are too since many would like to see a safe flop before going crazy with one pair (their words, not mine).

    AA, AK are actually in their range here in the local's morning games! My only question was how often are they doing something stupid with Ace no kicker, a random underpair like JJ.

    I did not like it a whole lot, but I called and saw AK, no bink for me.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • ihbeiserihbeiser Red Chipper Posts: 26
    Agree. My experience with the nitty afternoon, retiree crowd is that they totally undervalue AK preflop since they view it as a "drawing hand". If I end up showing down a hand where I raised or 3-bet with AK, I will often hear them talking amongst themselves and they will often be shocked at how someone would do that with such a "speculative" hand. On the other hand, if they do limp in with AK or call a bet with it and make top pair, they will play it very strongly.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not surprised, but I deleted my original recommendation to snap fold because I'm just not sure if it's the right play in the long run given price and overall strat.

    In nitty low stakes games, AK is very often a trapping hand, and you are definitely in that world on a Monday in Vegas.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Man, how are so many of you even thinking of folding?

    The board is A 7 3r and your opponent just open-shoved into you with only 2x pot to play after limp-calling preflop. And we have AQ.

    The rare times V has AQ beat, he is incentived to check given he is OOP and attempt to capture a bet from his opponent. IMO, this further weakens his range when he Open-Shoves.

    Secondly, we are way at the top of our range. If we fold here, we are pretty much saying that we fold everything except AK/AA, which in it of itself has to be incorrect.

    IDK I snap call here everytime. I also think I call with AJ.

    I think AT becomes a good discussion.
  • DonkeyspearDonkeyspear Red Chipper Posts: 7
    The reason you have to consider folding here is because this does not look like a typical donk bet that is usually a marginal top pair hand or a draw. This is an overbet from an OMC. He can see the ace on board and he's never doing this with worse than top pair. So, you're just hoping he has AJ or is losing his mind with a weak suited ace. In a 1/2 game where many players like to put you on AK, he doesn't call w AJ enough then open shove that hand to feel good about AQ.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    Man, how are so many of you even thinking of folding?

    Thing is what i take away from here is Doug describes the games to be nitty...
    Its already hard to put nits on a limp-call range, but when you do and he open shoves the flop? I think against more fishy players this is a snap call. However i been wondering how are the games so nitty if you have multi limpers but this is only 1 hand right? So assuming that ok this is a nitty game what hands do you expect to see show up here?

    Maybe there is something im missing in terms of how im reading or understanding the situation but whenever i see any nit make a shove, wether it be good or bad play im always in doubt because i highly doubt they show up with a wide enough range to make this correct. Just my thought about it...
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    I don't buy it guys.
    I understand it's a Nitty game and whatever. But what does Villain do with AJs & ATs? He doesn't limp/call?
    And we can't say he will never open-shove with these hands. In fact, I think those hands are more likely to open-shove as he "doesn't want to play a pot" and wants to "take it down right there", where as AK is super easy to play and he should allow his villain to bet.

    Those are just his "value" hands, sometimes he may just be jumping off the bridge with some crap because he is tired or some other illogical reason, similar to why it is illogical to open-shove. Like A5s/JJ and again doesn't want to play.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Let's say we call and he shows us AK and we lose. Do we feel like he owned us? Not really.

    Let's say we fold and he shows us ATs. Do we feel like he owned us? Hell yeah!

    This is my point.
  • Rello242Rello242 Red Chipper Posts: 595 ✭✭
    I think i play too much online poker because only thing i keep asking myself is "why the hell does he limp-call ATs & AJs???" I just don't know nits to do that, so i guess nits in live poker are much more different from nits in online poker.....

    Sigh.... I should just play live poker for a living...
    -Rello

    "Its better to give than to receive, so bet more and call less"
    Check out my HUSNG Graph: Chips-Results
    Follow All the Action On My Blog: www.rello242.blogspot.com
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Rello242 wrote:
    I think i play too much online poker because only thing i keep asking myself is "why the hell does he limp-call ATs & AJs???" I just don't know nits to do that, so i guess nits in live poker are much more different from nits in online poker.....

    Sigh.... I should just play live poker for a living...

    That's how I felt at first but it's the wild wild west out here lol.. but the wild west of marshmallow pits.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,069 -
    The rare times V has AQ beat, he is incentived to check given he is OOP and attempt to capture a bet from his opponent. IMO, this further weakens his range when he Open-Shoves.

    +1
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  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    The rare times V has AQ beat, he is incentived to check given he is OOP and attempt to capture a bet from his opponent. IMO, this further weakens his range when he Open-Shoves.


    This is a huge mistake in thinking. you got to think at their logic not your logic. I've played these guys a ton...

    These guys think along the line of I got a big hand..if I check raise it looks to strong...therefor I will shove, and if he has a big A I will get paid off...and maybe he will think I'm bluffing and pay me off with a weaker hand.

    The guys who shove AJ or weaker Aces...are first very rare and never the old man...and because when they do it they do it often so I expect to have a read.

    Hands like AJ want to get to show down..they don't shove...they hope you bet once and check it down...

    The really nice thing is once you see these guys make this kind of play...you can begin playing iso raising almost any two cards from the button...since if they call and don't shove...they tend to cap their ranges and you can barrel them off most run outs.
  • theClubbertheClubber Red Chipper Posts: 167 ✭✭
    I think against villains that play ecploitably you make a mistake by not exploiting them. Against this type of player i sigh fold.

    He's not thinking about what worse hands can call. He's thinking about protecting his hand. Against a strong player i would call, but what strong player limps behind tgen calls off 25% of his stack?
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    why do we care about Hero folding the extreme top of our range? Long term even if you lose here a non zero % of the time, it's a wash.
    Just call and expect to lose sometimes and rebuy.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote:
    The rare times V has AQ beat, he is incentived to check given he is OOP and attempt to capture a bet from his opponent. IMO, this further weakens his range when he Open-Shoves.

    +1

    I still stand by this. I know some of you disagreed with it, but I think this just holds true.

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